What Does Your Chronotype Say About You? A Book Review of The Power of When

00:00:24 - Amber Hawley
Welcome to season two of the My Biz Bestie podcast. I'm Amber Hawley.

00:00:28 - Maelisa Hall
And I'm Melissa Hall.

00:00:30 - Amber Hawley
And today we're going to be talking about this wonderful little book that we quote all the time called The Power of When by Michael Bruce. Yes, it's super exciting.

00:00:42 - Maelisa Hall
I know, like first time I heard about it was on a podcast interview and I was like, this is life changing. And I think I called you like right away.

00:00:50 - Amber Hawley
Yeah, I just remember you had actually been reading the book, the time that I remember, you probably did that. But I, you know, the number of times you tell me something's life changing and vice versa, could be a lot. So they don't always stick out. But I remember you having the awareness of your husband was a dolphin.
And then you were like, you are so a dolphin. And I was like, what are you talking about? And you said, you just have to wait. I'm going to bring the book and you're going to read it. And you brought it to one of our little mini GSD weekends. And I actually ended up reading the book that weekend, speed reading.

00:01:25 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, skipping through. Well, it's the type of book you can skip through. So it's a book about your, basically, it's mostly about sleep. It's by this psychologist who specializes in sleep. And he's talking about based on when you would naturally sleep, because Different people have different sleep patterns.
When would it also be best to do other things? And so each chapter is... The first chapters are like a quiz. So you find out what animal you are. And then...

00:01:52 - Amber Hawley
Yes, he breaks the four chronotypes, he calls it, into four different animal groups.

00:01:57 - Maelisa Hall
Yes. And he says that they're all mammals because people are mammals. So for some reason, that was very important to him. So then after he introduces... Like he does the chapter... where you have the quiz and everything. He introduces each animal type and goes through what an ideal day would be for each chronotype.
And then after that, every chapter is like a topic, like eating, working out, having sex, having caffeine, taking medication. It's chapters on all these random things that people would do throughout their day or their life and when it's best for each chronotype to do it and why.

00:02:34 - Amber Hawley
Yes, and we obsessed ADHD style onto it.

00:02:38 - Maelisa Hall
Hardcore.

00:02:39 - Amber Hawley
Hardcore. It's a very valuable book in many ways. We do have some criticisms and critiques of it as well, which we will share. But for the most part, there's a lot of... You can see where there's a lot of validity in kind of the overall concepts that he's talking about.
And, you know, obviously this is what he does for a living and, you know, has some good knowledge. The one thing I will say, though, is we both... took the online version of the quiz. And so when I took the quiz, I was indeed a dolphin, as you had basically told me I would be when we took the book quiz.
And you are a wolf. And we're going to explain what those four types are. And when we took the online quiz, we both came out as bears.

00:03:23 - Maelisa Hall
Which we both knew we were absolutely not.

00:03:28 - Amber Hawley
That couldn't be further from the truth, us being bears. We might as well be lions, like, swear to God, which is the last group. So this was last January. So it's January 2017 when we took the online quiz. So maybe they have fixed it because clearly there was an algorithm issue because when we took it in the book, it worked, but not online.
So we just want to put that disclaimer out there for those of you who use the online quiz. I'm not sure. Maybe they fixed it.

00:03:54 - Maelisa Hall
Totally. But yeah, but the book, well, and the book also has an additional quiz. Like if you are kind of on the cusp and this was not available online, then it's like, well, if you can't decide, because I remember for you, it was like, are you really a wolf or a dolphin?
And it was like, okay, answer these four or five additional questions and that'll help kind of like suss it out.

00:04:15 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. Although in reality is I feel like I'm a classic dolphin because But it was that feeling of like, no, I don't want to be I want to be a wolf, too. So I guess let's explain what they are. So the first one, the most common one is a bear. And so bears, basically, the world is made for bears.
Bears are the kind of people who naturally wake up with the sun and go to bed with the sun, so to speak. And of course, you know, we're not talking exactly right. But they're kind of just normal daytime people. And their rhythm seems to go in flow with that.
And it doesn't seem to be such a struggle with them.

00:04:49 - Maelisa Hall
Right. Like by 10 o'clock, they're ready to wind down. Usually around 7 a.m., they'd be waking up, that kind of a thing. Yeah. Having typical meals at what you would think of as like work-based mealtimes, right? Like noonish lunch, you know, having dinner by six, all of that.

00:05:08 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. Eight, noon, and six kind of thing. So that's a bear. So those were bears. That's the majority of the population. And then you're a wolf, so I'll let you describe wolves.

00:05:17 - Maelisa Hall
So wolves are night people. And so wolves usually actually have their energy later in the afternoon and typically struggle with waking up. So wolves, and actually he talks about how this is distinguishing between a wolf and a dolphin is really kind of how he figured out this whole thing.
Because he was talking, he talks about how he was working with this woman. You know, she thought she had insomnia. And she said to him, you know, it's really not that I have trouble sleeping. And, you know, that's not my issue. My issue is just that I feel like I have to sleep at a different time than everyone else.
And she's like, if I could just wake up later and not have to be at work at 8am and, you know, have to wake up at six o'clock in order to like get out the door and everything, then I'd be fine. And it was funny because he talks about for him, this was kind of a revelation.

And I was like, well, duh, like I've known that about myself since I was like 10, you know? Yeah. I just need to wake up later. And so once we go to sleep, sleeping is not the issue. It's not true insomnia where you're waking up constantly in the middle of the night and that kind of thing.
You can sleep a good eight hours and sleep in. You kind of think of teenagers are like the stereotypical wolf, staying up until maybe going to bed around midnight, 1 a.m. and can sleep kind of indefinitely and then wake up maybe at like 10 a.m. or something.
And so then everything is pushed back a little bit. And the key there too, is that their energy. So like my energy is not highest in the morning. I tell people this all the time when they want me to speak for them, when they want me to do an interview, right?
Anything like that. Always at 9am. I'm like, yeah, I can be there.

But you know, and even now that I have been waking up earlier and I do like it, like I've been making myself stick to a schedule and so I can do that. But still, even though I'm making myself wake up like by 7 a.m. every day or 5.30 a.m., my energy is still highest in the late afternoon, evening, all the time.
So that's a wolf.

00:07:19 - Amber Hawley
I know. Of course, because I sometimes have a child's brain the whole time. I was like, oh, you're a perpetual teen wolf. I love it. I love it. So yeah, so I wanted to be a wolf too.

00:07:33 - Maelisa Hall
And we thought you were a wolf and I thought for sure my husband was a wolf because... That's how my husband and I really got together is we would hang out late at night.

00:07:43 - Amber Hawley
Right, right.

00:07:44 - Maelisa Hall
He and I were roommates and we would end up staying up late having these long conversations. And we were just like always hanging out late at night. And that's how we connected. So I just assumed that the three of us were all going to be wolves. And lo and behold, you two are not.

00:07:59 - Amber Hawley
I know we were going to be a pack of wolves, but no. And this is why you have to read the book because if you just went on basic description, you might think that's you. And yeah, I always, and that's why I guess typically you would have assumed they'd call it the night owl, but because he wanted it to be, he picked his own animals.
We have no control over that. So I guess if you write a book, you can do that, right? That's what I'm totally going to do. Write a book, make some new names up. So it turns out I'm a dolphin. And after reading it, you will understand if you are a dolphin.
Dolphins are kind of classic insomniacs. Now, granted, people can have insomnia randomly at different times in their life for different things. So part of me was like, no, no, it's just because, you know, I have kids and I'm used to waking up several times a night.
Or it's hormones because I'm probably like perimenopausal or something.

You know, I just didn't want to have a problem with sleep, but I do. And I've had that problem with sleep, you know, even since being like a teen. Now, I would do the thing where, because I'm a procrastinator too, like sometimes I would pull all-nighters even in like middle school to work.
So sad. But so that still I think is different. But I always struggled with insomnia. And then I had worked on it and done really well for a while. But then after having kids, like everything went to heck. So... He calls them dolphins because he said that actually a part of your brain never actually sleeps.
It keeps going. Well, dolphins.

00:09:31 - Maelisa Hall
So that's, dolphins only half their brain has ever asleep.

00:09:34 - Amber Hawley
Yes. Oh yeah, yes. Sorry. The animal, that is what happens. So he was like, that's why he picked this group as being just like dolphins, because it can feel like your brain never actually goes to sleep. And probably any of you out there who may identify as dolphins may know exactly what I'm talking about.
where I feel like I have worked on things all night long, and they're just turning over in my head and which can cause us to have, you know, wake up after falling asleep and not be able to get back to sleep despite being extremely tired. So yeah, the dolphin is kind of the classic insomniac.
Now, the good news is from his research is that even though dolphins get far less sleep, that we still perform on cognitive tests, we still perform as well as people who got full nights of sleep. Even when you don't feel like you will.

Yes. Subjectively. So this is something, ever since reading that, I do tell myself when I'm having those days after three hours of sleep and I'm miserable, I tell myself, you know what? You're still going to do just as well as everyone else. So don't even worry about it.
And it does help because it's, you know, your belief, whatever you believe expands. So it definitely is helpful to know that.

00:10:42 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. And it's really interesting because he points out the reason that's happening is studies have shown... This was actually not even a study he did, or I think maybe he found this research and did his own too. But they found that there's a certain percentage of the population where their cortisol levels are whacked out because cortisol works with melatonin to give you a sleep schedule.
So your cortisol is supposed to go up in the morning and you're supposed to have high levels then to wake you up.

00:11:10 - Amber Hawley
Yes.

00:11:10 - Maelisa Hall
And people... who he found met his dolphin criteria. They have high cortisol levels at night when they should be sleeping and their levels are lowest in the morning.

00:11:22 - Amber Hawley
Conversely, higher melatonin in the morning, which is why it takes us so long to fully be awake.

00:11:27 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. So it's like a legitimate physiological issue that is impacting it. And that's why you don't feel this like awesome restedness because... You're going to feel that if your cortisol levels have been high the whole time you've been sleeping.

00:11:41 - Amber Hawley
Yes. So the upside of that is understanding you can take melatonin to help increase your melatonin at night to help you fall asleep and stay asleep. So that can be a very useful tool. But I think it's also the understanding of that's just kind of how your brain works.
And I still believe in creating good sleep habits. And there are things that you can do to support healthy sleep when you're insomniac. I definitely help a lot of clients with that in my practice because you don't get enough sleep, you're going to see a higher incidence of anxiety and depression and stress and all kinds of things.
So there's things you can do, but at the same time to know that this is just kind of who you are and you're going to be okay.

00:12:22 - Maelisa Hall
Well, yeah. And then there are things that can help. Like if you're someone like that, then using those sleep strategies like you were talking about are even more important than for other people.

00:12:30 - Amber Hawley
Yes. You have to be more diligent.

00:12:33 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. Yeah. And the other big thing is he said he always recommends that dolphins raise their cortisol levels like immediately upon waking up. So he's like literally like get out of bed and do a bunch of pushups or jumping jacks or something to give yourself cortisol right away.

00:12:48 - Amber Hawley
Yes. And although I'm not doing that, but is easing into the day by getting on Facebook for 45 minutes a recommendation? Because I feel like I could do that. Does it make your cortisol levels go up? Yeah. No, it's very relaxing, actually. But yes, it's that's the nice thing about the book is he does give you like little morning routine to kind of support what would be the best thing for you to create like that alertness.
And so then the last group are lions. And so they're the most rare group, I believe. And lions are those annoying, like, early morning people. I'm only kidding about the annoying. I actually have mad respect for lions, but they're the kind of people who wake up before the crack of dawn and just, I think of like those crazy top executive type people who just wake up and are ready to take on the day.

00:13:44 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. And I didn't even really think those people existed. I thought that was like fake.

00:13:51 - Amber Hawley
They're all a bunch of liars.

00:13:52 - Maelisa Hall
And we both know someone who's like that. And I heard her talking about like, oh, yeah, I wake up at like 5 a.m. or 5.30. Like 5.30, she's already at the gym. And I'm like, what?

00:14:03 - Amber Hawley
Are you talking about Miranda?

00:14:06 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah.

00:14:07 - Amber Hawley
She gets up at 3.30.

00:14:08 - Maelisa Hall
Oh, is it 3.30? Okay. It wasn't that early. But this is like naturally she's waking up at that time.

00:14:14 - Amber Hawley
No, I know. She gets up at like crazy time.

00:14:17 - Maelisa Hall
Yes. And on top of that, there are people who also like by 9 p.m. are – like falling asleep in a chair. Like they're just naturally going to bed really early too.

00:14:27 - Amber Hawley
Yes. Yeah. She is. If we didn't know Miranda, we wouldn't believe that they exist, but they do exist. So just so you know, they are not unicorns. They are lions. Awesome. So as you said, like going through the book, you know, the different chapters kind of spell out when are your optimal or ideal times to do certain things.
Some of the takeaway when I read about the dolphin is, it really, what was useful is it really helped solidify for me like, oh yeah, that's what's going on. That works for me. And so for my type, and I don't have the book in front of me, so I'm just remembering, but my type, I remember them talking about between like 11 and one or like 10 and noon around that time, that that was an excellent time for like brainstorming and kind of that kind of creative process.
thinking kind of work, not where you're working on a problem or talking with people, but that you're kind of in this brainstorming mode.

And I remember saying to you like, oh my gosh, that's when I go sometimes to like my local restaurants, and just go and sit and have like a lunch by myself and just kind of go through that. And when I get to do that, and start my week that way, I usually do it on a Monday.
And it just feels so amazing. So there were things like that there were times like when to have difficult conversations, knowing like your energy. And for me, that was in the later afternoon, like the four to 6pm zone of, you know, I'm gonna save it for those times where mentally I'm more focused and more alert.
And probably I'm going to say when you're more focused, you're also probably a little more emotionally stable. So that's a good time to have that. So there was so much in the book that I absolutely loved because it either solidified for me something I was already doing or a kind of encouraging me, like it's okay to, you know, put these things off till four in the afternoon.

Because if you read like Eat the Frog, which is another great book, I'm supposed to do this hard thing first thing in the morning, but that might not actually work for me and be the ideal thing for me to do depending on what that task is.

00:16:36 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, that's what I really liked about it too was it's not just an all or nothing. And it's not going against like, yeah, it's still great to have a morning routine, a night routine. And like I said, even when you wake up may not, like maybe you're a night person, but you still have to wake up early.
your energy levels are probably still gonna adjust based on what chronotype you are and planning out things like when you have meetings, when you're doing emails, like I found that like same thing. A lot of people say, oh, don't start your day with doing emails.
But for me, it's actually a lot like that's an easier task to do in the morning because it's just kind of like knocking little things out. Whereas more interesting, creative, high energy things are better for me to do in the afternoon. And like we both know for us to report podcast episodes is better for us to do it later in the afternoon.

We'll have higher energy and we'll just both be more on top of stuff.

00:17:31 - Amber Hawley
Exactly. And so I think it's, I remember one of my favorite supervisors saying this to me a long time ago, and I use it all the time and I've probably said it before on the podcast. It's easier to ride the horse in the direction it's already going. And so that's the thing is giving yourself that permission to say, hey, this, I know this is conventional wisdom, but that doesn't work for me.
And that's not going to be what produces the best results for me and how my brain works or how my body works. So I think it's, yeah, it's one of those things that helps you be more deliberate, pay more attention to things and have a little more ease.
Because when you're not fighting your own body and brainwaves and alertness, then it's so much easier, right?

00:18:14 - Maelisa Hall
Totally. Yeah. And you still like, if you're not a bear, then they're still going to be adjusting certain things. Like one example I like that he gave... I think on the podcast interview I listened to, he talked about a guy who was a wolf, but like, I think his wife was a bear and they have younger kids and younger kids are pretty much always on more of like a bear or lion schedule.
Right. And I think they were like school age. And so he was saying how like dinner, like he never wanted to eat dinner with the family at like five o'clock or five 30, because for him, he would want to eat dinner so much later. Like that was just when he got hungry was he'd prefer to eat dinner at like eight.
for example. And so one of the things this guy did was he just had a light snack with the family. So he was still there for family dinner and it wasn't like, oh, why isn't dad eating kind of thing. But then he had his meal after they put their kids to bed.

So there's still little things you can do to adjust your schedule based on your phase of life and what you have going on. And I've had to learn, I'm not going to have the schedule where I go to bed at 2 a.m. and wake up at 10 a.m. because it's just not realistic.
It doesn't really work for my business and I want it to, but it doesn't.

00:19:30 - Amber Hawley
Wouldn't it be dreamy though?

00:19:32 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. And I actually do like waking up in the morning or earlier in the morning, but that's never going to be my high energy time either.

00:19:40 - Amber Hawley
Yes. Because I can remember, you know, like if a client asked me to see them super early and I say, oh, I don't start until, well, now it's one. I used to start earlier. I used to see clients at 8 a.m. No way. Yeah, dude, it was crazy. It was nuts. But yes, when you have young kids, that's what you do.
But I would tell people, it's not that I'm not up because I'm up. I just don't want to have to talk to people. Like I don't want to have to do things until later, which is why we try not scheduling our podcast recordings until after one, because we could, we're up, but- we want to make sure our brains are up.

00:20:14 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, yeah. And like for engaging with people, it's just something that's better for both of us to do later.

00:20:20 - Amber Hawley
Exactly. So yeah, so there's a lot of value in just kind of understanding yourself. I mean, I think we've said that time and again, which is why we're such a huge proponent of these personality tests, or, you know, kind of anytime you learn more about yourself, gain understanding, it supports what you're doing, it helps you make changes when things aren't working.
So I think that's really valuable. So within the Book again, he goes through, you know, when are the best times to do all kinds of things, and then he has a section or sections about. You know, if you're married to a bear, which a lot of us are, you're married to a dolphin, so you guys are, I think, a lot more symbiotic.
I'm married to a bear. As most people are, like we said, they're the majority. And so this is where one of my critiques came in, and where I. Some of the shine started to unravel for me, I will say, because it says that as a bear, the best time for my husband to have sex is 8 p.
m. And then as a dolphin, the best time for me to have sex was 10 p.m. And then they said, if it's a dolphin and a bear together...

Now, what time of day do you think that they would suggest a dolphin and a bear have sex? If the ideal is 8 p.m. for the bears and 10 p.m. for the dolphins, my brain logically went to, well, we should have sex at 9 p.m. I mean, fair is fair, right? Yes, it's like fair is fair.
And I want to say that maybe I'm off by an hour now. Now I'm worried that I'm misremembering. But basically, it said we should have sex at like 7 p.m.

00:21:49 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, it was really weird. And we were like, this doesn't even make sense.

00:21:52 - Amber Hawley
I was like, so we should both be miserable? I was like, I don't understand this. This makes no sense. So I feel like little things like that kind of bothered me about the book. So yeah, I just don't, I'm like, that just doesn't make sense. I don't know if that's an editing oversight, but still it's kind of unacceptable when you're trying to have people learn a schedule that works for them.
So that is my big frustration. And I find that we just choose to have sex online.

00:22:19 - Maelisa Hall
Well, and I think there are certain things that don't apply to everyone. And some of it is just kind of like promotional in nature, right? Like it sounds provocative or whatever. And so it's in the book for that reason. But I think it's one of those things like don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Overall, the concept is really, really helpful. And I think it's really, I think it's actually really helpful for those people who are dolphins to find out that they're dolphins. Maybe more than anything, because usually night people know that they're night people.
But I think it's also one of those things like, yeah, okay, yeah, this is where my energy is. So this is how I can plan out my day and to kind of think about that. And also, if you have employees, be understanding of how that might differ for them and figure out how you can work that out.

00:23:03 - Amber Hawley
Yeah, and I think that's a huge one if you have employees because it does build a lot of understanding. And I think for anyone, even if you're a wolf or even a bear, it's like understanding, checking in about when your natural rhythms are. So I agree, we should not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
That's why we're talking about it, why we promote it a lot. It was just some of those things where I felt like, okay, they told him he needed another 100 pages, so he just filled it. And like somebody didn't edit it. It really pissed me off. Totally.
I'm like, this is total crap. Do not give me contradictory information because I will be on you because that is what I do.

00:23:41 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. But I would definitely recommend people... check out the book, especially if sleep or figuring that out has been a struggle for you, or if you feel like you're not in line with maybe some of your team members or not in line with your spouse or your partner, I think it can be really helpful.

00:23:57 - Amber Hawley
Yes. And if you're scheduling your day as an entrepreneur and trying to maximize time, you don't want to be fighting with time, right? You want that easefulness as much as possible. And so If you're somebody who says, oh, I'm going to block out all my time and say, okay, from 10 a.
m. to noon, I'm going to work on this project. But it happens to be something really cognitively taxing. And then that's not a time where you're awake or in flow. That's a terrible time to schedule it. It would be awful for me to schedule numbers-based stuff at 8 a.
m. That would be a real big mistake. Yeah.

00:24:32 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's even, I mean, like I'll even let people know, like I've had to do conference presentations at 8.30 a.m. on the East Coast, which is 5.30 a.m. my time. And so I'm like, I just know it's not going to, like it's going to be a good presentation because I'm pretty good at it, but it's not going to be as good as if it were in the afternoon, you know?
And like I'll open up my presentation with some comment about like, hey, I'm not a morning person or whatever. Like, so I'm like, hey, I'm putting it out there. I'll be even better if you see me later.

00:25:03 - Amber Hawley
Yeah, you should see me after five. That is where I'm a dolphin, right? Because if it's an ungodly hour, then I actually can function. It's the weirdest thing. If I have to give up every... And I did actually work at Starbucks where I got up at 3.30 in the morning.
And if I have to get up and... be somewhere at 3.30, I can do it. But if you ask me to get up and be somewhere by 7am, it is like painful. So weird.

00:25:28 - Maelisa Hall
So that, and then the thing about like having too much sleep, quote unquote, is like, that's one of the things my husband talks about. And then you just mentioned that the other day too. And I'm like, that concept is so foreign to me. I'm like, how could you ever have too much sleep?
But it's like this weird thing that happens. And that's one of the things he talks about too with dolphins is that actually he recommends you just plan to get six hours of sleep. and don't really try to do more.

00:25:52 - Amber Hawley
Right, which is against, again, most conventional wisdom. So it is an intriguing book. We love it. We suggest you take a look at it for sure. There's a lot of value in it. Just be wary of the online test. If you're a bear, you might want to go to the library, check it out and see.
But it is an excellent read.

00:26:10 - Maelisa Hall
And it's an easy read too, which is Kind of nice, yeah, because you don't have to read the whole thing. It is divided up in these sections. You can kind of find what you want and that's that, and then pass it on to somebody.

00:26:20 - Amber Hawley
And as a marriage therapist, I'm just going to say, have sex when you want to. Because that clearly was not something they prioritized. Oh, awesome. So definitely check it out. The power of When? And hopefully I'm pronouncing his last name, right? Michael Bruce.
Yeah. Yeah.

00:26:40 - Maelisa Hall
Although it's spelled B-R-E-U-S or U-E-S. Yeah.

00:26:44 - Amber Hawley
But it's just Michael Bruce. Yeah. Michael Bruce. Like it. Strong name. Maybe one day we'll have to get him on here and he can justify why I shouldn't have sex at 7 p.m. Be like, defend yourself.

00:26:59 - Maelisa Hall
This is really why we wanted you on here. But yeah. And if you have been thinking about this or if you know anyone else who's been struggling with this issue, I think a lot of us do, then share this episode with them, share with a friend and they might find it helpful.

00:27:15 - Amber Hawley
And then you can share the book with them too. Yes. Like as best he did. So definitely, especially if you think someone's an insomniac, do them a favor, hook them up, let them feel bad about their life. Yeah.

00:27:29 - Maelisa Hall
Better. All right. We'll see you on the next episode.