Understanding The Myers Briggs Personality Types

Amber Hawley [00:00:22]:
Hi there. Welcome to season 5 of the My Biz Bestie podcast. I'm Amber Hawley.

Melissa Hall [00:00:28]:
And I'm Melissa Hall.

Amber Hawley [00:00:30]:
And we are super excited for this new season. There's so many firsts with this one.

Melissa Hall [00:00:36]:
I know. It's like, even though it's season 5, it's still like every time is— it's like it's the first time every time.

Amber Hawley [00:00:43]:
It feels like the first time. I would sing that for you, but I'm just not— I'm not in that space right now.

Melissa Hall [00:00:50]:
I think we're all OK with that.

Amber Hawley [00:00:52]:
OK, that's good. But yes, the firsts are we are finally going video, folks. We will be posting this on our YouTube channel and it'll be the unfiltered version because frankly we are not going to be editing all that stuff out.

Melissa Hall [00:01:09]:
Nope. So yeah, if you want bloopers included, which sometimes there are none and sometimes there's a good amount.

Amber Hawley [00:01:16]:
Yeah, yeah, none, none. I don't remember the last time that happened, but yes, we will try. We're trying to keep it, we're trying to keep it to together. But yes, it's kind of like the unfiltered version. So if you want to do that, head on over to our YouTube channel. But we are very excited about Season 5. We have amazing stuff lined up this year. I mean, I think every season we're super excited about it. Like last season was— we felt was pretty epic. But we're just excited to be back and sharing it with you. And because we're just coming off— the other first was this is the first time we're both recording in our new homes.

Melissa Hall [00:01:54]:
That's right. Because over Season 4, you and I both did a lot of transitioning and now you're in a different state and I am no longer in a RV or a boat. I was going to say a mobile home, which basically is a mobile home, but I call it just the OG tiny living, which is one-bedroom apartment living.

Amber Hawley [00:02:21]:
Word.

Melissa Hall [00:02:21]:
It's really the same thing.

Amber Hawley [00:02:23]:
Yeah, you're kicking it old school. And I didn't just move states, I moved state of mind. So it's just really so much, so much. I thought about throwing a y'all out there, but it doesn't feel authentic yet. Like, it hasn't ingrained in me. But, but yes, I'm coming from wonderful North Carolina, so this is our premier for Season 5. We're so pumped. And to share something new, we happen to be scrolling through and seeing an amazing review that we got, and we wanted to share it with you all.

Melissa Hall [00:02:58]:
Ha!

Amber Hawley [00:02:58]:
I didn't mean to do that, but it just happened. But, uh, we had this amazing review from Groovin' Gal.

Melissa Hall [00:03:07]:
So we love you, Groovin' Gal.

Amber Hawley [00:03:08]:
I know we don't know who you are, but we love you, Groovin' Gal. And so I'm just going to read through her review because it was so— it was just It really touched both of our hearts, I think. So her title is Honest, Real, and Fun. She says, I love it when thought leaders, especially other therapists like me, because let's be honest, our lot can be a little stuffy, are not afraid to tell you the truth. Amber and Melissa managed to be both encouraging and direct about how the biz ownership game is played. Whether they are interviewing other influencers in the entrepreneur world or discussing a hot topic that's probably on your mind already, Talking About You, Episode 58. You will find value and actionable lessons in every single episode. The business owner's journey can be a lonely one, so you got to find your biz bestie now, people. But when you discover a podcast like this, you instantly feel supported by other women who get it. So pour yourself a glass of your favorite adult beverage and subscribe to this baby right now. You're welcome. Thank you, Grooving Gal. I mean, I know She should be doing our PR, man. That's just like the— it was the most, the nicest, most heartfelt review ever.

Melissa Hall [00:04:17]:
So I know we loved it. Yes. So Grieving Gal, reach out and let us know who you are. Hopefully it's not one of our moms.

Amber Hawley [00:04:25]:
And being that neither of them are therapists, I know, I don't think so.

Melissa Hall [00:04:31]:
But yeah, it's so cool.

Amber Hawley [00:04:34]:
Yes, we would love to know who you are. Besides grooving. So we are grooving with you. And but the exciting thing is today, by popular demand, we are going to be doing a deep dive on the Myers-Briggs, yo.

Melissa Hall [00:04:49]:
Yes, we are. And it's a little, I will say, a little intimidating. But we have, whenever we've been in person talking to people who listen to the podcast and have asked like, oh, what do you want to hear more of? Or what, like, every single time this comes up that you guys liked the, the original Myers-Briggs episode we did. I know we have one on being extroverted versus introverted, and then we have one on the other part of the Myers-Briggs, but it is a very— I don't know, it's very much an overview. And there's, there are different, like, translations, I guess we could call them, of the Myers-Briggs. And this is kind of digging into what's probably the more common translation, but way more complicated. So not that it's— I am going to simplify it for you and make it seem like the easiest thing to understand ever.

Amber Hawley [00:05:42]:
That's a big promise, my friend.

Melissa Hall [00:05:45]:
Yes, promise.

Amber Hawley [00:05:46]:
But yes, by far the Myers-Briggs episode is our most popular. And you know, we love talking about personality stuff and how understanding yourself better helps you be a better business owner and a better leader for your team. So So it just felt like the right thing to do. And as Melissa was describing it to me and showing me like Venn diagrams, and I was like, I feel really overwhelmed right now. Even though I use the Myers-Briggs with my clients, with my couples, I love it. Even though I do that, I feel like I was like, oh, I feel that ADHD tune-out thing happening, but she promised to make it palatable.

Melissa Hall [00:06:25]:
Yeah. I will say for me, it took me a long time to dig into this level of the Myers-Briggs because when you look it up, it's insanely complicated. People nerd out on it hardcore and use all of these terms and don't explain what they mean. And so it's really difficult to like to get into it other than looking up, which we recommend, 16personalities.com, which just has like wonderful text descriptions and gives lots of examples. And I still say that is my first go-to, 100%, because I feel like they synthesize the information and give to you what real-life examples are going to look like. Whereas today, we're diving more into the backend part of it, I guess, and why all of these letters work together in order to make those real-life examples. And I know for me personally, what this helped once I finally was able to dig into it was Like one thing that you'll always see when you look up like Myers-Briggs relationships or couples is that ENFPs and INTJs are supposed to be the perfect couple if they can manage their differences. And so that's my relationship because Amber and I are both ENFPs and I'm married to an INTJ. And once I understood this process that we're going to go through today, I understood why they said that. And then I was like, oh, okay, I kind of get it.

Amber Hawley [00:07:53]:
Nice.

Melissa Hall [00:07:53]:
Yeah.

Amber Hawley [00:07:54]:
Yeah. And I, I think it'll be— yeah, like we said, go to 16personalities.com for those of you who haven't listened to the previous episode and you have never.

Melissa Hall [00:08:03]:
Taken the test and don't know or.

Amber Hawley [00:08:05]:
Don'T remember what you have no idea what we're talking about. Just, it's free. And like Melissa said, it's so succinct and really great at explaining things. And I think people can really connect to like, oh yeah, that's me, or, and we've said before, if you're kind of in the middle, like they give you percentages, and if you're like at 55%, it might be that depending on like stress levels or what's going on in your life, you might actually be the other letter. So if it doesn't fit for you, always check out the opposite letter one. So you get assigned 4 letters essentially. So definitely check that out. But I'm just gonna let you, Melissa.

Melissa Hall [00:08:44]:
Start and And tell me when it doesn't sound super simple and awesome to understand.

Amber Hawley [00:08:52]:
Yeah, I will tell you. I will be the layperson who's like, "Dude, that's overwhelming.".

Melissa Hall [00:08:57]:
Yeah, and it is. So I'm just warning you guys, if you're like me and you're like, "Oh, I want to go look this up on my own," it's freaking complicated. But for those of you who don't know, so the Myers-Briggs is a personality test. It was actually created by Carl Jung. Who's a psychologist in our field. He's kind of one of like our founding father people. He's also like Freud, was like super weird and did all kinds of things that would be considered extremely unethical. And he would be like, now he would be considered like a horrible psychologist, but because he was one of the first ones to think of a lot of this stuff, he's, you know, freaking upheld as, as like one of our founding fathers. So That's a rant I could go on about a few of those guys.

Amber Hawley [00:09:42]:
Yes, well, yes, you could. There's a lot of that shady stuff that happened, unfortunately, and how people made discoveries. I mean, even on the medical side, anything with that healthcare, any of that stuff where it's a new horizon kind of thing. However, he did contribute a lot. And so beyond the Myers-Briggs, like a lot of people will probably talk, like know about like Jungian archetypes and stuff. There's a lot, the hero's journey, there's just a lot of good stuff there. But yes, there's, unfortunately, like most history, there's also a lot of, yeah, crazy.

Melissa Hall [00:10:17]:
I think he was a very creative person and like a lot of creative people.

Amber Hawley [00:10:20]:
Yes.

Melissa Hall [00:10:21]:
Little cry cry. As someone who might be a little bit of both of those, I feel like I can say that. So yeah, so then other people have like really developed a lot and that's like 16 Personalities is one of those. They're kind of like a company or an entity that has like taken that and then combined it with a few other things. And so people have kind of run with it. So that's why if you do look it up, or talk to different people, you'll see all these different types of interpretations. Um, so this one is kind of like the, the purist interpretation because it's using like what Carl Jung started, and then also it's Briggs and Myers who then like went really, really deep into making this like an actual test. And not— it, it's not scientifically valid So like a lot of people in.

Amber Hawley [00:11:11]:
Our field will be like, oh, well.

Melissa Hall [00:11:12]:
It'S not a valid test. And I'm like, yeah, but qualitatively, like it usually does describe people pretty well. So it's still very— which we're saying.

Amber Hawley [00:11:21]:
Is pretty damn accurate.

Melissa Hall [00:11:22]:
Yeah, I think it's really useful.

Amber Hawley [00:11:24]:
I'm just gonna translate.

Melissa Hall [00:11:26]:
Yeah, there we go. But yeah, that's why you find all kinds of like weird random stuff on it. So basically, like Amber said, it's these 4 letters, right? So you get a, you take this test, you get a combination of 4 letters and each of those letters, so it'd be like 1, 2, 3, 4, 'cause they're always in a certain order. So you have 2 options. So it's called 16 Personalities because you have 16 personality options basically, right? If you combine all those letters together. And just to summarize super quickly, the first is the E versus I, extroverted versus introverted, which is your energy source. Basically, like how do you get energy? N versus S is the next one, and that's how do you perceive information, like how do you take it in? T versus F is the next one, which is thinking versus feeling. Sorry, I didn't explain that last one. N versus S is intuition versus sensing. T versus F, thinking versus feeling, is basically like how you process information. And then the last one, J versus P, judging versus perceiving. Is how do you implement all of that information once it's processed? And so it's really kind of like, how do you make decisions? So if we're going to kind of dumb it down and have to define it super specifically, but basically your middle letters, those two in the middle, so it's either N or S or T or F, are really like your top functions. And so letter number 1 and letter number 4, really their only purpose is to tell you how those two letters in the middle interact and what is most important to you. So that's kind of why you will see a lot more emphasis on those things. And I think that's why, like, Amber, what did you say about someone who you're was— a P and they were a J? It was like a supervisor or someone.

Amber Hawley [00:13:22]:
Oh yeah, my— one of my professors that I absolutely adored, and And I was, we were talking about it at some, you know, like networking social hour thing, 'cause that's what we nerds do. And she was like, oh, you P's, like, oh, I just can't handle the P's. And I was like, no, you need to love me because I'm an ENFP and you need to love me.

Melissa Hall [00:13:49]:
Yeah, and I know like we've talked about like the J versus the P a lot, which is that last letter. And it kind of makes sense because really the purpose of the J versus P, it's not that you're either a J or a P, it's that— so it's judging versus perceiving. So we both have judging functions and perceiving functions. We both— we, we all use both of those, but that one determines which is your dominant extroverted function, which means what is the dominant function you use in the external world. So what's the dominant function that you're actually going to use, like, when you're interacting with people, show to other people? So that's how, like, it doesn't matter if you're introverted or extroverted, right? Like, you are going to, when you interact with other people, because we all have to do that at some point, you know, which of those letters are going to be most important and how are you going to be showing that. So I'll kind of like, at the end, we'll kind of like synthesize all this and I'll, I'll show you some different examples with like almost the same personality types and how they can actually be very different based on the P versus the J. You're gonna have like a top judging, which is gonna be your T or F. So that's how you judge things and kind of make decisions. We all do that based on our thinking or feeling. And if you're strongly a thinking or strongly a feeling person, you— this probably makes sense. Because you're like, yeah. So like, as Fs, we tend to basically— we're more likely to like go with the flow rather than create conflict. So it's just that you're more likely to do that, you know, you'd rather have harmony than conflict. And so you might actually just like end an argument and like know the other person is wrong, but you don't care. Because you just want harmony.

Amber Hawley [00:15:46]:
Yes. And I think an important thing to note there is I think sometimes when people, you know, my experience of working with clients, when they get their results and they're like, oh, I'm a T and my spouse is an F, they think, oh, that's because I use logic.

Melissa Hall [00:16:02]:
Yeah.

Amber Hawley [00:16:02]:
And that's like the number one thing. And I'm like, no, you both use logic where your taking that data from is where, you know, our logic comes from, right? But it's also the, like you're saying, it's kind of like your style of what's most important to you.

Melissa Hall [00:16:21]:
Yeah, I like that, your style, definitely. And then, so it's like everybody is using that, but which one is like the top one for you? And then same, everyone is using a perception. So a perceiving function is either your intuition or you're sensing, which is N or S, and that's the second letter. So we all perceive things, but we do it differently. That's N or S. And perceiving or judging is going to be more important to different people. So basically, the J or the P just tells you, is it T or F that's most important, or N or S, as far as interacting with your outside world? And then I or E basically shows you kind of like what is that, whatever your like dominant function is going to be. Is it like an introverted function or an extroverted function? So it's kind of complicated. There's all these little mixes, but basically you're going to use letters number 1 and letters number 4 to almost create like a different type. And you're just going to have like introverted feeler with extroverted sensing, with introverted thinking, with extroverted intuition, and like, that's really your type. So it's kind of like this weird language. Yeah, it's, it's freaking weird. But when it comes to like dealing with the outside world, which is what that JRP is teaching you, is, is saying you have, I kind of liked this description from a website that I don't have off the top of my head, but we will include in our show notes. It's an awesome website if you want to look it up. Um, but it says when it comes to dealing with the outer world, people who tend to focus on making decisions have a preference for judging because they like— they tend to like things decided. So I know in the past we've kind of talked about J versus P and like how it's like kind of like planning versus not planning, but actually it's like People who are J's could be very flexible and people who are P's could plan a lot of things ahead of time. It's, but it's more looking at like the way that you do that and how you communicate it to people. And then you're more likely to be a J if you just like to have things decided. It doesn't mean you're inflexible, but you want to have like a set time that something is happening. You know that it's happening at that time. And then if you're a P, so it says people who tend to focus on taking in information, because if it's a P, then we're more focused on our perception of the world around us. So we're more focused on like, well, hey, like, let's wait to make a decision because we want to gather more information or see more opinions or, you know, hear more opinions or see what happens, right? So we kind of stay open to a final decision in order to allow more information to come in.

Amber Hawley [00:19:21]:
Hmm, [Speaker] okay. 'Cause I mean, that helps I think for people maybe who find out that they're a P and they're like, "But I'm a planner 'cause I know me as a—" Well, I mean, it'll sound woo when I say Virgo, but I'm a Virgo. I am definitely like a list maker, a planner. Like I've got goals. I am, you know, I'm a very organized person in many, many ways. And yet I can be adaptable and kind of go with the flow. And there are times where, yeah, it's like, okay, the reason it's hard to make— because I'm decisive, but there are times where I'm like, wait, I'm not quite sure. Because like I'm thinking about all those other things or factors or, you know, I'm like, I need the mental space to say, okay, well, let me really sit down and think about this because I want to think about like what all those other things are. And so that kind of makes sense. Like, I leave space for that.

Melissa Hall [00:20:16]:
Yeah. And I always feel like talking to people who are Js, a lot of people say the opposite, right? Where they're like, but I'm very flexible. They're like, I, they're like, I do like to have a schedule, keep things decided, but they're like, but I'm totally open. I, I, they're not rigid, right? It doesn't mean that just because you're a J that you're rigid. It just means you do actually like to have things decided.

Amber Hawley [00:20:38]:
Yeah. Although it's much more fun for me to pretend that they're all rigid and make jokes about it. And they can be. So this is the thing, you can be a rigid J and you can be a rigid P, right?

Melissa Hall [00:20:52]:
Yes.

Amber Hawley [00:20:53]:
So that's, that's the thing where it's like, oh my gosh. But I guess I noticed that rigidity a little bit more in the Js. I'm just going to say there's gotta be a combo there that speaks to that.

Melissa Hall [00:21:05]:
Well, and it's, and so the J or the P is really just telling you like, Which, which of those functions is more important to you, decision-making or perception? And how do you display that with others? Because it's showing you what's your extroverted function. So your extroverted one is the one that's going to dominate when you're with other people versus when you're on your own.

Amber Hawley [00:21:29]:
Ah, yes, that makes sense.

Melissa Hall [00:21:33]:
Yeah, so this is why people who may seem like opposite letters for most letters, they might actually have some crossover that in like their dominant functions makes them very compatible. Hence the INTJ versus ENFP, which I'm not going to try to break all of that down because that might take me like 10 minutes.

Amber Hawley [00:21:54]:
Yeah. Or longer.

Melissa Hall [00:21:56]:
But I thought it was really interesting kind of like looking at that because it's just a different way to look at the personality test, right? Where it's like you're using the letters to kind of just determine what are ways that you interact with others and interact when you're on your own. And how do you make decisions and how are you taking in information?

Amber Hawley [00:22:18]:
Which I think is really important to know. I mean, like I said, I use it with my couples a lot because it's— that's the thing, people are taking in information in different ways and their approach is very different. And so sometimes that becomes conflictual between partners, but that, that also goes to people you're collaborating with or your employees or your team in business or even your customers, right? So I mean, I think that's a huge piece too. And so just understanding how you're working, 'cause then I think, one, I mean, you could decide, is this something I need to have disclosure around or kind of explain your process? 'Cause sometimes when people understand where you're coming from, it's easier for them, or understand why you might be getting pushback from somebody. I think it can be very helpful. And yeah, and unfortunately, I mean, we've seen this a lot where, the IE thing, like people just interpret that as sociability and it's absolutely not that because I know extremely social introverts. It's just that they're going to manage that time better or they're going to manage their time and say, "Okay, I just did this for a day. Now I need like 4 to not talk to people.".

Melissa Hall [00:23:26]:
Yeah.

Amber Hawley [00:23:28]:
So, but I think it is really— I think that's why we do like to geek out on this because it is really helpful. It's applicable. It's a valid thing that you can use to kind of hopefully make your communication with others, you know, and make— improve it, make it more helpful, useful.

Melissa Hall [00:23:48]:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I could see that with, with your kids. Yeah, with leading a team, all of that. Because you're just thinking, like, sometimes you might be thinking somebody's like holding out on you, or somebody's flaky, or somebody's not actually sharing their opinion when they should. And you might interpret that a certain way and their intention is completely different, right? So having this framework at least helps, like, gives you a starting place to have conversations about like, hey, I notice. Or you can like use it your own way, you know, like say, hey, I like to be really flexible and I hate being scheduled.

Amber Hawley [00:24:29]:
Yeah.

Melissa Hall [00:24:29]:
So It actually stresses me out to have my day scheduled. So here's, here's what I prefer. And then you can tell other people that, because then you might have an admin person, like, so if you're kind of like a P like us, you might have an admin person who's a J who probably would rather have things be scheduled out, know what to expect, have things set up ahead of time. And you totally need that person, but it's, you know, because you need that yin and yang. To have a really successful business, especially if you're going to have like multiple projects or team members. But you have to have that conversation about the fact that like you are each going to be stressed out about different things. And that way you can each give one another grace and each kind of, you know, make an effort on the other end.

Amber Hawley [00:25:18]:
Yeah, that's huge. As you were talking, I literally just started thinking about my team. So I was like, oh yes, Joanna. But yeah, I think, yeah, 'cause sometimes there's criticism over like, why does it matter? Why do you, you know, especially if you get those like hardcore people who say, well, that's not even a valid test. But there is a lot of information that I think just knowing yourself better does help in that and understanding that. Like, and I think especially with people you work closely with, closely with, where I know I've had— I'm thinking, I think Joanna is a J and she's a very flexible person and I feel like there's a lot of flow there and good communication. And then I've had previous people, assistants working for me that were J's that were really rigid. And that's the thing as a P, like I have a lot of schedule because I have clients and all of this and, but then outside of that, I'm like, I just can't, I can't have any more schedule. This is why it's so hard for me, like my current chiropractor. My favorite chiropractor in the world was because you could just walk in. You could walk in and he would see you within 10 minutes, you know, unless it was like an insanely crazy day or something. He was just— he had good flow and turnover. And it's not even like— if he's listening, I feel so bad— but it's not even about him being like the best chiropractor. It was like the most— the ease of it, you know, was so— I love that. And I felt the same thing about all the people that I would see that kind of helped me stay together as a human being.

Melissa Hall [00:27:00]:
Like your massage therapist.

Amber Hawley [00:27:02]:
Yeah, massage therapist, my pedicures, my, you know, acupuncturist were always scheduled, I guess. But it was like, I just like love if I could be like, okay, I'm ready right now, do you have an opening? Because having to schedule out, and there's some people you just have to because there's no way to get in with them otherwise. But I just loved like not having that. And so understanding that, and so instead of overscheduling or beating yourself up, understanding like, I might need to actually find people where that can happen. 'Cause that's the only way it works.

Melissa Hall [00:27:33]:
Yeah, and on the flip side, like if you're thinking like, well, nobody runs their business that way in my field or whatever, like maybe you can actually offer some really cool service that a lot of people want but just isn't available because that's how things are always done in your field, you know? So, okay, so to kind of break this down, like, with a personality type, to give an example, so if you're using the, the J personality type, is going to show the X— like, you're going to show the external world, right? Is going to be your judging function. And the P personality type, what you show other people The first thing you show other people is going to be your perceiving function. So what does that look like for like an ENFP? Since we use that example so often, and then I'll, I'll explain how an ENFJ, how just having that one letter can make it different. So if you're an ENFP, then N and F are your most important letters, right? That's kind of like what we're breaking down. And since the last letter is P, Then we're going to determine how we interact with the outside world with our first— is our perceiving function, and that's going to be the first extroverted function.

Amber Hawley [00:28:52]:
Okay, but can you explain for people like what that actually means? What is the perceiving function?

Melissa Hall [00:28:57]:
So the perceiving is either your N or your S, and your judging function is either your T or your F.

Amber Hawley [00:29:04]:
Sure, but what does that actually mean? What does it mean to be perceiving?

Melissa Hall [00:29:08]:
So your N or your S is like how you process information, like how you take in, how you take in information around the world from the world around you. So if you are an S, then you tend to rely more on your senses, like your actual physical senses and gathering data. And so most people in the world are Ss, that's the majority. And so most people are looking at like It looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it's a duck, right? Like, smells like a duck. Yeah. And it makes sense.

Amber Hawley [00:29:44]:
Okay.

Melissa Hall [00:29:45]:
Right. Like, because it would kind of make sense for most people to have, to have that.

Amber Hawley [00:29:50]:
Yes.

Melissa Hall [00:29:50]:
Because that's kind of how the world works. Right. And then N is actually people relying more on their own intuition and underlying interactions and patterns. So this is why actually a lot of therapists, if you anecdotally, every once in a while on a therapist Facebook group, someone will ask about the Myers-Briggs and people will start throwing in their, their letters. And you will see like 90, 95%, like the vast majority are NFs, which is their perceiving is N or S. So they are more intuitive people. And then the judging function, which is T or F, which is that thinking versus feeling, makes sense. Most therapists are feelers, right? Right. So it's kind of this intuition and feeling. Um, so NF is super common with therapists. Most of the descriptions, like when they break down like what would be the best job for whatever, you'll see that usually like INFJs, um, they'll say being a counselor or a therapist is one of the top professions. And ENFPs, usually that's one of them too.

Amber Hawley [00:31:01]:
Okay. So then going back to the— because I think when you said the sensing, it was very like really concrete and I think easy to understand. So going back, can you say a little bit more about the N as far as like you said it's about patterns? And so just to kind of give people in case, you know, help catch people up to this.

Melissa Hall [00:31:24]:
Yeah, so let's say you're a therapist and you are an S. You're probably more likely to be the type of person who writes reports or who does, does tasks that require you to gather data and gather information, pull things together. It doesn't mean that you have— and, and this is kind of like this theory it's not saying that you have either N or S, right? This theory is saying it's just which one is dominant, right?

Amber Hawley [00:31:56]:
So, so you're not saying every S therapist is like CBT, right? Right.

Melissa Hall [00:32:02]:
And it's not that like, so you, you're S and like you're kind of relying on like behavioral observations and data and gathering data and doing testing or something like that, but you're still able to like synthesize it and you're still going to maybe interact with different people differently based on like how they present to you. And you might actually be extremely perceptive in that way. So a lot of people who are S's are very, very sensitive to the way people interact. So you think about kind of like detectives or like FBI people or like those behavioral experts, they might actually be S's because they're just super sensitive to little like minute behavioral changes. The Dog Whisperer.

Amber Hawley [00:32:42]:
Like Monk.

Melissa Hall [00:32:43]:
Or Monk.

Amber Hawley [00:32:44]:
Yeah, like Dog Whisperer. That's a good one. I know.

Melissa Hall [00:32:47]:
César Millán. I'm totally blanking on his name.

Amber Hawley [00:32:51]:
Yeah.

Melissa Hall [00:32:52]:
Yeah. Like he's awesome. And actually you kind of think like, it's almost seems like he has like this magical skill. So you, you know, you kind of think like maybe he's intuitive and he might be, but he also could just as likely be an S who's just super perceptive at all of that, picking up on those little tiny nuances.

Amber Hawley [00:33:14]:
Hmm. Okay.

Melissa Hall [00:33:15]:
Yeah, whereas an N is more intuition, patterns, behavior. So you are more— like, an N is usually more comfortable talking about ideas and kind of like dreaming about things or thinking about theories or talking about theories. The things that are important to us don't necessarily have to be in the physical world and don't have to be present.

Amber Hawley [00:33:38]:
That's a good description. I think that's very helpful for people. And I do see that a lot with, and this is where I think people come back to that, I'm using logic because I'm using my senses and I can see it as opposed to what you're talking, you know, like, oh, you like the other person, what you're talking about, you're kind of, there's like this theoretical kind of, or the dreamer. Like if somebody is kind of like, well, these are the possibilities. And sometimes that's very off-putting to the person who's like, But that's not in the realm of reality. So I think that's where sometimes the communication struggle can be really difficult for people.

Melissa Hall [00:34:21]:
Yes. Yeah.

Amber Hawley [00:34:22]:
So I think I can imagine, like I'm thinking about in business, like making it applicable is I think sometimes when you have that leader who's very much the dreamer and kind of the idea person, It can work well with those people who are the sensing if there's an understanding and there's kind of like this respect of, oh, this is what's happening here. Like they're big picture, they're doing this piece, but they're still very smart, intelligent people that I know that, you know, they're more aligned with me in values. And I think that's where kind of like personal values or understanding each other comes in.

Melissa Hall [00:35:05]:
And an S might be like a big picture person, but they're more— their big picture is like, okay, what are the steps that we're going to do? Like, let's create a 5-year plan.

Amber Hawley [00:35:17]:
Right, right.

Melissa Hall [00:35:18]:
Whereas an N might be like, let's talk about what we want it to be like in 5 years and think about what we want it to be like in 5 years and won't this be amazing? Um, but doesn't necessarily, yeah, need to like, okay, Now let's break it down to like what happens in year 1 and what happens in year 2, et cetera.

Amber Hawley [00:35:36]:
Right.

Melissa Hall [00:35:37]:
Okay. So you definitely have to have both of those people.

Amber Hawley [00:35:41]:
For— yes, I do think so for a successful business, or have at least somebody to bounce those ideas off of, you know, to have that person, that bestie, that inner circle, that coach, team, whatever those— however those people come into your life. I think that, yeah, it's a very helpful combo. Yeah, okay, cool.

Melissa Hall [00:36:01]:
So, so if you're like— we are ENFPs, right? So basically we're extroverts, but we're going to lead with our perceiving function. So our like top extroverted function is going to be our perceiving function, which is the N intuition. And then you pretty much always lead with whatever is If you're an extrovert, you're going to lead with your extroverted function. If you're an introvert, you're going to lead with your introverted function. So the P or J tells us which one is the extroverted. So it's kind of like telling you which one is your number 1 or number 2. And they both are very important. Like, you'll have, you know, a number 1 and a number 2, but both of them are considered dominant, so they kind of work together. So since we're extroverts, we're going to lead with whatever is our extroverted one. Our P tells us that our N is the dominant, the, the extroverted function. So that means we have extroverted intuition. So then the next one, just by default, our F is going to be introverted. So that means we have extroverted intuition. So when we're talking with other people, so this is why ENFPs love to talk about the future. Love to talk about dreams, just like we were just saying, you know, like ENFPs are totally the people who are like talking to people about possibilities all the time because the extroverted, the intuition part is how we are interacting with other people. Since our F is introverted, this kind of makes sense how, you know, we've always talked about how ENFPs are supposedly the most introverted of all the extroverts. So ENFPs while we love talking to other people and like having deep conversations with people and talking about possibilities and we can be dreamers, a lot of times we're very uncomfortable sharing our own emotions.

Amber Hawley [00:38:00]:
You don't know me.

Melissa Hall [00:38:01]:
I know. That's the whole— because our feeling is very strong, our feeling, our decision-making, our judging function is really strong, but it's an introverted one. So it's more, we're more reflective of our feelings or kind of focusing on those when we're on our own.

Amber Hawley [00:38:22]:
Right. Absolutely. And that's where you can have your spirals, people. But it is interesting. I do, you know, I, yes, I see that a lot with the people just beyond myself, but with people that I know that are that combo and that sensitivity and not wanting to You know, you're not putting it all out there, you know.

Melissa Hall [00:38:47]:
Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's, it's, it's kind of—.

Amber Hawley [00:38:50]:
Are many ENFPs actresses or actors? I wonder, because that seems like that would be a really hard thing unless I guess that's a whole like mask. Okay, I don't want to go down that road. But anyway, let's go back to— so let's, let's then kind of talk about a different example beyond Just to say that kind of same thing, but kind of explaining.

Melissa Hall [00:39:12]:
So like an ENFJ, so same thing where it's basically like, what's the J telling us? It's telling us what is your dominant extroverted function? Well, we already know an ENFJ is going to be extroverted, but this time it's going to, it means that their F or their T. Is going to be the top one. So an ENFJ, even though there's only one letter difference, is actually going to be— so they're going to be extroverted feeling as their dominant function and then introverted intuition. So it's kind of like the flip side. So they basically are going to be a lot more comfortable talking and sharing their emotions and basically like talking to other people about that. And then their intuitive process or their like perceiving process, how they think about things, how they're processing things, they're not as likely to talk to people about. They're more likely to do on their own.

Amber Hawley [00:40:15]:
Hmm. Are you— I'm putting you on the spot here, but do you have an example of somebody who's an ENFJ?

Melissa Hall [00:40:24]:
I don't. I'm trying to think.

Amber Hawley [00:40:26]:
Now I wish I had the 16 Personalities thing come up. I know. Sometimes they give you characters from shows. I could break that shit down because.

Melissa Hall [00:40:33]:
Like— Although sometimes I don't agree with those. I'm like, what does that even mean?

Amber Hawley [00:40:39]:
But I find that so entertaining.

Melissa Hall [00:40:41]:
I know, I know. But it's so like, this kind of helped me. Like, you could see how maybe like an ENFJ and an ENFP will probably get along, but they might kind of naturally talk about different things or bring up different things when they're together. Now, there's still— those are still both their dominant functions, so there's going to be a lot of crossover and a lot of connection, you know. But how they might naturally interact with other people is likely going to look very different.

Amber Hawley [00:41:14]:
Yeah, well, I hope this is making sense to you listeners out there. Um, I feel like I'm getting it, but also like I do use it. So, but I think, you know, not really having ever heard about like which one is more dominant and how that impacts it, it's kind of interesting to see. And, you know, hopefully that's helpful for people because I think if you do have, let's say again, I'm going to go with team, you know, somebody where you, cause I doubt you're going to ask your customers. You know, what's your Myers-Briggs? Unless of course you're like a coach or something, that would make sense. Yeah, and I do it with my counseling, my therapy clients. But going with your team, if you had them take this, you know, free 15-minute quiz, which again, we do not get any kind of kickback from them, we just happen to really love their product, 16personalities.com. But, uh, if knowing that, you could understand that than having somebody who is that— even the ENFP, they might not feel as comfortable sharing their emotional stuff in like a group setting or with you, but they're, you know, like, that would be helpful to kind of understand, right? Yeah.

Melissa Hall [00:42:30]:
And I feel like that's a big one that comes up for like interpersonal interactions is like how some people really like to go off and process things on their own. And some people really like to do that with other people.

Amber Hawley [00:42:43]:
Yes. And this is— now that you've said it like that, that's really helpful because this is another thing I see come up with people a lot when they're having conflict is like the, the kind of like throwing it out there when they're not in a great space is kind of like, oh, you're a slow processor. Like they're not as smart or that they take too long. And I'm a quick processor. So that obviously makes me you know, superior in some way. And the reality is, and I always say it's, it's just, they're different. It's just different ways of getting there. And one is not better than the other. But I think that's a really helpful thing to think about. It's like, well, it's not just that, it's that your type is, I need that, that space and that alone time to actually process all the information that just happened and then come back to it. As opposed to somebody who's like, okay, let's just continue to talk this out and we're going to work through it and that's how I'm going to come to my conclusion.

Melissa Hall [00:43:41]:
Yeah.

Amber Hawley [00:43:42]:
And like you said, it's not like an either/or. It's not like, oh, we're done talking and, or I, you know, I figured everything out while we talked. It's a spectrum, but I do think that that's an interesting thing I really hadn't thought about before in those terms of, I always knew like some people need to process it takes more time, but it's maybe not just the time, it's the alone space.

Melissa Hall [00:44:05]:
Yeah, and it's so fascinating because I was listening to this interview. I really like Rob Bell's podcast, The Robcast, if you are into spiritual discussions but not religious, very Spiritual and purposefully. self-development. Yeah.

Amber Hawley [00:44:24]:
Yeah. Personal development, that's what I mean.

Melissa Hall [00:44:28]:
Well, and almost more social justice even, like kind of like societal level personal development.

Amber Hawley [00:44:34]:
Thought-provoking.

Melissa Hall [00:44:35]:
Yeah. So I love his podcast. He has never said this, but he's very obviously an ENFP and a 7 on the Enneagram. He has said he's a 7 on the Enneagram. But he had this— he was interviewing a woman who is actually a pastor and she's Korean. And she was talking about cultural differences and because she was like this only Korean pastor and then she was like this only Korean female pastor and all this stuff. But one of the things that she has done, and now she has kind of like a big role, is she's created these workbooks for people that are kind of like personal development, but more like spiritual development workbooks. Because she said she tried therapy and certain aspects of it were really helpful. But she said that actually what was much more impactful for her was like reading through books and then like really digging in and spending the time on her own. And she said she made it like a practice where like every, so like every, you know, I don't know if it was like an hour a day or whatever, she was basically like doing research. She would be like, you know, I'm feeling this or I'm confused about this or I'm thinking about this. And then she would like do the research on her own and read up on it and reflect and meditate and ask herself questions. Questions. And she said for her that was much more impactful because she's very introverted. And I was like, that kind of makes a lot of sense. So she was like, I'm not knocking therapy at all, and certain aspects of it were helpful, but I got to a certain point where this was actually what I needed to grow. And that, that's what was more meaningful for her.

Amber Hawley [00:46:12]:
I like that. And I think, I think there's that combination too that can be helpful. Of sure, you might lean towards the thing that is your, like, more of your wheelhouse, but like she said, there were aspects that were helpful, and I'm sure there was parts that needed to be processed with someone else because, you know, not being in a bubble or getting a different perspective.

Melissa Hall [00:46:35]:
And I don't think she had, you know, it wasn't like we weren't— we're not talking like deep sexual trauma or something, right? Like right?

Amber Hawley [00:46:40]:
You.

Melissa Hall [00:46:40]:
That.

Amber Hawley [00:46:41]:
Know, throw that shit out there.

Melissa Hall [00:46:44]:
But, but because I would recommend going to a therapist for something like that.

Amber Hawley [00:46:48]:
Yeah, absolutely. But I do see the value in taking that time and processing it yourself, especially if your personality leans towards that. I think everyone could benefit from that, I guess is what I'm trying to say, because I feel like— Yes, like.

Melissa Hall [00:47:02]:
We all need reflection and meditation time. Exactly. Kind of researched to be helpful.

Amber Hawley [00:47:08]:
Yeah, there's like some validity to that. Studies show, many studies show. But yeah, being able I think that's good to make people feel like, oh, this isn't my only one path. I can also explore. And I think you hit something like it depends on the severity of what's going on for yourself, right?

Melissa Hall [00:47:29]:
Yeah. Well, if we're talking like spiritual development, like for me, I could do that. Like, and I do think obviously research shows like we should all be meditating on our own every single day. But for me, and I know it's because I'm an extrovert, it's meaningful and it's impactful, but there's a point where I need that connection with other people to kind of like almost like synthesize it, or when it happens with other people, it's that much more meaningful for me.

Amber Hawley [00:47:59]:
Yes, yes, absolutely. And at the same time, yes, being a verbal processor, that's where like my brain gets going. And then that's why I love having, you know, a biz bestie or those people to kind of bounce things off of. But if you're not that person, that's a really helpful thing to kind of understand. Like, you should do some of that perhaps, but that might not be your number one go-to. That you doing it yourself and kind of reflecting and taking that time and space for yourself could be hugely impactful.

Melissa Hall [00:48:33]:
Yeah, and I think this is where you see, like, when you hear people talk about feeling like the black sheep in their family, or feeling like everyone in my family is one way and I'm different. I think it's a— I think it's a lot of this type of thing where it's, it's more than just being extroverted or introverted, right? It's, it's also that, like, what are the parts of that? Is it, is it sharing your feelings? You know, is it that, like— because some people might be introverted but still comfortable sharing their feelings or talking about feelings, or they might There are lots of— and this is a lot of therapists are INFJs. And so they're very comfortable in that space of feelings, whereas other people aren't, you know. And so, but then if you're extroverted or introverted, that's going to impact it too. So I think it's all of these things playing together that often contributes to people feeling really misunderstood or left out or really frustrated.

Amber Hawley [00:49:33]:
Absolutely. And now that you say that, I even think the times that I have often felt misunderstood, because sometimes I feel as an extrovert in our field, or even just with other people that aren't therapists at all, I feel that sometimes I get misunderstood because I'm having fun and enjoying being with people and talking about things and just like, you know, having a good time, and then people kind of make assumptions about kind of what's going on or the feeling. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, actually, these feelings run deep. I just— I have— I didn't talk to you about that part. And then, like, when those assumptions are made, I think that's when it's, like, so hurtful, because it's like, no, that's not how I feel at all. Like, I was just saying something stupid, or, or I, like, meant it, but it wasn't, like, you know, it was such a surface thing and there's so much below that that I'm not sharing.

Melissa Hall [00:50:27]:
Because it's to me— Because of your introverted feeling.

Amber Hawley [00:50:31]:
I know, because it's like you have not earned the rights, as Brené would say, like I don't have enough marbles in your jar to share my stuff yet. But it does make sense to me as you say that, that's when those times where it's like, and I'm sure we've all had that, where we feel like I was in a certain mood or a certain place mentally, or I'm talking about something else, and then all of these assumptions are kind of made, or a comment is kind of made where you're like, wait, wait, wait, that's that's not, not actually what's happening here. You know, you're making a big leap without understanding that. And I think that's the problem with making assumptions about— you get one little nugget of information about somebody and you think you know everything, and it's It's like, well, no, that's not true. You know, we are much more complex and in-depth people than, you know, casual interactions can possibly give us, which is why it's so important to develop those relationships over time and to, I guess, even have a little bit of grace for ourselves and for others because we're not perfect people and we're not perfect communicators. And even if we really are saying something that we actually mean, it's like that also can be very nuanced. So I think it's very complicated, which is why I like to think about these things, because then I also think about like how then if something, if my communication style is causing me distress, if I'm thinking about how, like if I'm having stressful interactions with my staff or with clients, clients or my partner or, you know, just my friend group or whatever, whatever it is, when people are asking that kind of stuff, they're having that conflict. Like, how is it about your style? Like, kind of what, what are the things in the way that you're communicating with this particular person, maybe, or in general, is causing you this distress? And like, kind of look at that. Because I think when you do understand, like, oh, this is what's going on right here, you can actually say something about that. You can talk about that. And that way it's— it kind of like almost negates it.

Melissa Hall [00:52:38]:
Yeah. Or it— like, in— when you're talking about like peer groups or friends or even networking, I think that's why sometimes you just never click with certain people, and that's okay. Yeah, I know that you might be like, oh, okay, like this is just the type of person like I just don't click with. And, and you might— I think it's easier if you can recognize those things sooner so that you don't kind of like waste both of your time and energy. And also, so there's just like no hard feelings, right? Because I think certain types— personalizing it. Yeah, like certain people you're more likely to— person, you know, us Fs are more likely to personalize things than the T.

Amber Hawley [00:53:17]:
Yes. And like you said though, if it is your friend group and these people that you already have relationships with, I think if you keep having these things, being able to say like, whoa, whoa, Wait a minute, no, actually, you know, I do have, I wish I had like a specific example in my head right now, but it's like, I do actually care about, you know, this planet. I know, I was like gonna say environment and I was like, well, where the F do you get that? You will know, we have righteous indignation about that. No, that's where it's like, No, I.

Melissa Hall [00:53:54]:
Actually talk to people.

Amber Hawley [00:53:56]:
I know. Yes, you could talk to me and think I don't like people, like, because of jokes I make. And I mean those in those moments when people are very irritating. And I actually think I'm an extremely compassionate person, hence the therapist part. And I love people and I love love. But if you are going to try to boil people down, and I think that's where you can just talk about it and say like, oh, whoa, wait, like, that hurts. Or, you know, I mean, that might be too vulnerable for some people, but or to say like, oh, well, what? Okay, so this is the thing. You just kind of explain kind of your personality type. I think it helps people. You're just kind of giving them some context. I think that's what it is. I don't know. That was a very convoluted way to say that. I think you have better examples.

Melissa Hall [00:54:45]:
Basically, like, yeah, if you know yourself, then you kind of— you're better able to identify like what triggers you or who triggers you, but you're also better able to explain to people, hey, I tend to be like this, or I do this. So that's what, you know, so you can kind of explain if you think you're being misperceived. Um, and hopefully that person will then take that in and be able to, you know, perceive it differently or be able to say, oh yeah, that doesn't work for me.

Amber Hawley [00:55:16]:
Right, right. Which is okay. Yes. And that's— no, and I think it's giving that context is hugely important. Even though this doesn't fully align with the kind of what you're saying about the ENFP, when I think about, there are times where like I'm venting about something, but this might be an ADHD trait actually, but it's, uh, but when I'm venting about something and I'm talking about it and somebody like, as soon as I said it, they're like kind of like, okay, it's time to move on. They don't necessarily say it exactly like that, but they'll say something else. It's like, oh, but you know, like it's like a count your blessings kind of like response. Or they try to fix it and I'm like, whoa, wait a minute. And I have learned, I used to get really pissed. It's like, oh, you're not going to let me know how I feel? Because it's hard to share how I feel and now I'm sharing it and now you're telling me it's not okay. So that just reinforces, I don't want to share my feelings because you people don't know how to handle it. Yes, but being it, that has helped so much, even just being able to say to people like, Well, actually, I just need to be able to talk about this to like let the emotional piece out because the intensity is there. There's so much intensity in the feelings. It's just like, keep it more in. Right. So when I'm letting it out, I need it to be let out. And just like, you don't have to agree with me. I don't care about that, but at least allow that space and don't tell me like, okay, time to move past that. Or don't feel that way. I just hate when people do that. And when I see other people do it to people, I'm like, Like, I hate that. Like, allow people to feel how they feel, right? And so this is why I think we talk about these things.

Melissa Hall [00:56:55]:
Yes.

Amber Hawley [00:56:56]:
And so why I think it is really good for you to kind of take these kinds of tests or, you know, whatever they are, quizzes, or, or kind of, you know, explore those things about your own personality and see like, okay, this is how I work. And so, and that's just how I work. So it's like I've got to ride that horse in that direction I'm already going? And but how can I let people along the way know if they're riding in the other direction?

Melissa Hall [00:57:25]:
Yeah, or maybe they just want a different mode of transportation.

Amber Hawley [00:57:29]:
Yeah, they don't like horses. They're like, I'm on, I'm on a speedboat, baby. I don't like this old school stuff.

Melissa Hall [00:57:39]:
Like, all right, we'll meet, we'll meet up there.

Amber Hawley [00:57:41]:
Yeah, exactly.

Melissa Hall [00:57:45]:
So yeah, so hopefully this broke it down a little bit. If you've ever seen those complicated diagrams or heard extroverted intuition, intuitive thinking, that kind of stuff, this helps explain kind of how all that works.

Amber Hawley [00:58:02]:
Yes.

Melissa Hall [00:58:03]:
And hopefully, yeah, I think we gave enough examples to kind talk through like why it is helpful to know this stuff or think about it or recognize it in yourself.

Amber Hawley [00:58:15]:
I know now I'm feeling like I want to gather up about a bunch of ISTJs or, or, or similar type people and just like have them come on and talk about their examples like crazy because maybe we should do some Facebook Lives with them. Like, oh my gosh, we can get together.

Melissa Hall [00:58:33]:
So much fun. Kind of like a like a call-in episode. I don't know. See, I'm— yeah, maybe Myers-Briggs 3.0 in season 6, people.

Amber Hawley [00:58:47]:
Yes. But I, and I think, and I think for, you know, for the purposes of this podcast, like thinking about how can that help me as a leader, as an employer, as, or as somebody with clients, like how How is that costing me? Or how can I, how can I capitalize on that to make it, to make it better so that there are less communication miscommunications? You know, that kind of thing.

Melissa Hall [00:59:13]:
So yeah. And I think like, so you feel comfortable with your marketing strategy, all that stuff.

Amber Hawley [00:59:20]:
Yeah. Because it's how you show up. So, well, thank you for the masterclass.

Melissa Hall [00:59:26]:
Yeah. This is an episode. So major props if you're actually still here with us.

Amber Hawley [00:59:32]:
Yeah. And I would be interested in hearing, like, does it make more sense? What do you think? What are your thoughts? How do you feel about that?

Melissa Hall [00:59:44]:
Yes. Let us know. You can head over to the show notes on our website, mybizbestie.com/podcast. Check out, and this episode will be there.

Amber Hawley [00:59:55]:
And also the video will be out there, so they could leave us comments below.

Melissa Hall [00:59:59]:
That's right. If you are watching our video on YouTube, comment below. Let us know what you think. Include, hey, if you can, you know, a picture of your, your own personality type Venn diagram.

Amber Hawley [01:00:14]:
Make sure it's in small letters and kind of looks a little crazy. Yeah, like in a comp— in a black and white composition notebook though. Yes, make sure it's that.

Melissa Hall [01:00:24]:
All right, welcome back, people. Welcome back.

Amber Hawley [01:00:28]:
We'll see you next week.