The Four Tendencies Book Review

00:00:24 - Maelisa Hall
Welcome to season two of the My Biz Bestie podcast. I'm Melissa Hall.

00:00:28 - Amber Hawley
And I'm Amber Hawley.

00:00:29 - Maelisa Hall
And today we are talking about Gretchen Rubin's Four Tendencies. And I'm excited to talk about this because I feel like just like The Power of When, we have some critique and some examples of why it's also really useful to check out.

00:00:48 - Amber Hawley
Yes. And as we were kind of our version of preparing for an episode.

00:00:54 - Maelisa Hall
Actually, I feel like we prepared for this episode perhaps more than almost any other I would agree.

00:01:00 - Amber Hawley
I would agree. We actually listened to some videos this morning, just to remind ourselves, because I had stumbled upon this a long time ago, a few years ago, actually, because I'd heard Gretchen talking on a podcast, and just thought she was so great and bought her book better than before.

So I'm a huge fan of it. And there's so much value. And as we started kind of, you we just kept, which unfortunately we probably shouldn't have talked to each other beforehand, but we had all these great insights and like, oh my gosh, yes. So we're hoping you get a lot of value out of today.

And, and again, the reason we go through these things is because the more we know ourselves, the more we know like what we need, who we work well with, what we're looking for in a bestie or support system and how to navigate those difficulties when you're, you know, having disagreements or looking at things differently, because even having a support system, you're, hopefully you're not all the same.

And just the reality is in life, you know, conflicts come up.

00:02:01 - Maelisa Hall
Oh, for sure. And I think like Gretchen talks about with this, She even mentions, we'll go through what the four tendencies are, but the one that she is really helped her with doing her happiness project, which is kind of how I think she became well-known.

And she always just said, well, yeah, I just did it. And then she didn't understand until she actually went through this process of identifying what motivates people, why other people have such trouble making a decision like that and following through.

So I think it's really interesting because they're not necessarily things that you would be cognizant of. or think to... I think extroversion, introversion is just so well known that a lot of people think of that one. But these are things that you wouldn't necessarily think of ahead of time.

But when you're aware of them, then you're like, oh, that's why that person does that.

Or that's why this person drives me nuts. And you understand and it completely changes the dynamic.

00:02:57 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. And as she talked about, part of what we re-listened to was... her interview on Eric Fisher's Beyond the To-Do List podcast, whom we love. And she talked about that this is really niched. It's not looking at overall personality, but basically what motivates you.

And initially, her book was about how to create habits or how do we do the things that we do or where's the motivation coming from? So she said that there are four tendencies and that she has figured out And the first one is called the upholder. And that's what she is.
And an upholder is somebody who basically, like if they set an intention, they respond well to external and internal motivations.

So if they decide like, hey, I want to do a New Year's resolution, or like you said, I want to write a book or I want to do something. Once they've decided it, they have no problem just following through. It's pretty easy for them. And also they do the same thing for external motivations.

things. So they meet deadlines easily. You know, if they, they have other people expecting things from them, they have no problem meeting those challenges. So she was saying that a lot of people in like the self-help industry, especially around productivity would say, she would guess that they're upholders because they're teaching people because they're like, Hey, it's so easy, you know, and just do this.

So that's one category in their smaller category. The next one is questioner. Do you want to say a little bit about that, Melissa?

00:04:29 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. So the questioner actually resists outer expectations and meets inner expectations. So the questioner is someone who is looking at why am I doing this? For everything that they're doing, whether it's creating a new habit, whether it's meeting a deadline, whether it's following through on a task, they want to know that there is some internal motivation there.

So that's what motivates them. They're not necessarily motivated by helping someone else out or by showing up for other people, really, in fact, they will resist doing something just for other people or just for some external purpose unless it has an intrinsic meaning to them.

00:05:12 - Amber Hawley
Yeah, and I liked what she said. She said in a couple places and writes about it, but where she talks about questioners basically will continue to ask questions or gather information until something makes sense to them. So they basically turn every expectation into an inner expectation.

Otherwise, they're not going to go along with it.

00:05:30 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, exactly. And I think we both thought initially that we were questioners.

00:05:36 - Amber Hawley
Yes. When I read, when there's like a, I can't remember where it was, but I saw this little mini description of what each of them was. And I thought, oh yeah, I'm absolutely a questioner because I do that. Like I'll ask for information or just kind of try to understand why.

And once it makes sense to me, then I'm like, okay, I'm on board.

00:05:54 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. And I was always the person in corporate. I'm like, well, why are we doing it this way? What's going on? I am not just going to do it because you want me to do it. That's totally not good enough. I don't care if my boss... To me, authority doesn't really mean a whole lot in that way.

So obviously, I'd probably be bad in the military, right? I don't want to just do it because some authority told me to do it. I'm like, where's the value? Like, what's the point of this?

00:06:22 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. Oh, and I have so, I mean, I know you do too, but there are just so many stories and times that that has come up. Or like when something's happening and I'm like, well, that's completely illogical and stupid. I'm not doing that. Like, that's just dumb.

And so that, yeah. So we both thought we were questioners.

00:06:39 - Maelisa Hall
And actually, well, and you said that one of your employees is a questioner, right? And thinking of it kind of helps you.

00:06:45 - Amber Hawley
Yes. I realize now that I have this person who I really like and get along with. that works for me and he's a questioner and it would actually kind of make me nuts. And I just felt like he was so like, it just felt like everything was a struggle or if there was like, there was kind of, you know, questioning my intention or am I doing this wrong or just that kind of thing.

And then realizing like, Oh no, it's actually coming from a place of just trying to understand it for himself. And there was no like, And that's because I think you're incompetent or you're doing it the wrong way. I mean, maybe he had that too, but it really was coming from a place of just trying to understand.

And when I could take that piece out of it, it helped me immensely, you know, just kind of depersonalize things.

And so that it just made that interaction feel better. So that was deeply beneficial.

00:07:40 - Maelisa Hall
I think that's just such a great example of how these things could be so helpful at work. Or like when you have employees, because understanding those things, and we can go through some more examples too, like that Gretchen shares, but you know, it really highlights how it helps you work with people more easily because you can bypass a lot of things that could become problems and depersonalize things.

00:08:01 - Amber Hawley
Yes. And that's the thing. And I think the questioner is the one, you know, in... workplace environments that probably does get, they can be kind of annoying at times and it can feel tedious. Like, can you just do it? Like we've all decided this and that's the way it is.

Can you just frigging do it? Like, is it that big of a deal? You know, when you're talking about something that's not going to put them out or inconvenience them or, you know, so it can be that, but really they offer a lot of value because they offer an opportunity to streamline things, to create more efficiency, to even just question the process and decide like You know, is this the best route for us?

And all of these, all of these types, they all have their strengths and they all have their drawbacks, right? So, but yeah, I think that when you understand that, and especially, you know, when you're working with people or you're employing people, understanding what motivates them and kind of, you know, where they're coming from helps a lot.

It can really decrease a lot of tension in the workplace.

00:08:59 - Maelisa Hall
Totally.

00:08:59 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. So then the next one is the rebel. And do you want to talk a little bit about that?

00:09:06 - Maelisa Hall
Sure. The rebel is super special because I am...

00:09:12 - Amber Hawley
The rebel is actually the most rare type.

00:09:15 - Maelisa Hall
Of course. Of course it is. So we are both rebels and it's funny because... And it's funny because initially, because of what we just said, when I just heard the titles, I had assumed, oh, I'm probably a questioner because I always do that. And then as soon as I heard Gretchen Rubin actually talk about them, I was like, oh, snap, I'm a rebel.

And then I did the quiz and it's like, yeah, you're a rebel. And so a rebel is not, it sounds terrible, okay, but a rebel is neither motivated by external nor internal things. motivation or expectations. So they are not motivated by having to make a commitment to someone else necessarily, and they can make a commitment to themselves and also break it.

So it can be a little bit of a conundrum. Yes.

00:10:04 - Amber Hawley
They resist all expectations.

00:10:09 - Maelisa Hall
Yes. Yes. And this is where I think you and I, and we were like, okay, we'll have to talk about this on the podcast, right? Like, The phrase that Gretchen uses is that you resist. And maybe the fact that we're even questioning this and calling it something else is part of our rebel.

I don't know. Because she uses the phrase that the rebel resists both internal and external expectations. And I wouldn't necessarily say it's that I'm always resisting them. Some of the examples she uses is that if you tell a rebel to do something, they will want to do the opposite.
And I have had that. So I'm not going to say I don't do that at all.

00:10:47 - Amber Hawley
I especially did that in my teen years, perhaps.

00:10:51 - Maelisa Hall
And I didn't do it so much, but apparently I did it quite a bit as a toddler.

00:10:55 - Amber Hawley
I think it's kind of a toddler thing. All toddlers do that. Yes. I was like, that's just a toddler thing. I just want to point out, but I think, you know, Didn't, even when reading the description of absolutely, I'm not a rebel because I'm not contrarian.

And that's how I always saw it as somebody who's just very contrary. Or, you know, devil's advocate, that kind of thing. And she does, depending on the interview she's done, she has described it that way. And so I was like, No, there's absolutely no way.

And I took the quiz and it said I was. And when I read further and I do have the book, so when I read further, I was like, Oh, okay, yes, because I. when she speaks about it in a much kinder way, I guess, like there were other parts that I relate to it because not all rebels, I think like on purpose choose the opposite.

And I think that's what you're talking about is that you don't just choose the opposite.

And what I heard her describe rebels before is they will, when they decide that something is important to them or they want to do it, they will do it. So basically they're doing what they want to.

00:11:55 - Maelisa Hall
She says a rebel wakes up and thinks, what do I want to do today?

00:11:59 - Amber Hawley
Yes. Which, you know, I love those questions because it's very indicative of kind of that mindset, right? And I will say, so my husband is a rebel as well, and he's the devil's advocate type. So I absolutely understand this because I swear that he purposely, he does it less now, and I don't know if with age you just mellow a bit, but he absolutely will do the opposite.

of something just because I've like asked or said something. And I really don't ask a lot of him. So sometimes that's kind of a, it's like, oh man, that just pisses me off. Cause I'm like, I don't ask that much. So it just depends on his mood, of course.

But what I think about is that is both, there's a lot of good things from rebels because they can kind of pave the way and do, you know, out of the box kind of things.

Which I do think we do. And at the same time, it can be a real struggle because as I try to create certain habits or make changes, and I'm somebody who, as a therapist, my whole thing is based on people's ability to change and make their lives better.

And so I'm always thinking about, what is it that makes it so hard to do that? And for rebels, if you're trying to use the same strategies that you would for other people, it's just not going to work. And it's tough because there are times it's like, yeah, I really want to do that.

But then once that, you know, initial like excitement about it is gone, it's like, meh. And then you don't do it anymore.

00:13:28 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. Yeah. Like making, whether it's making an internal decision and being like, this is really important to me, I'm going to do this. And then as soon as it's not important, like I'm not going to do it anymore. I don't care. And that's kind of a, it can be a good thing and a bad thing because I think rebels can switch and they can adjust.

But yeah, Sometimes that means that they're willing to break promises, whether that's to others or to themselves. And I think there are different levels of it, obviously. I mean, she says that rebels are acting out of a sense of choice and freedom. So that's the most important thing to them.

And it was funny because as soon as I heard her say that, I was like, oh yeah, that's totally me.

00:14:05 - Amber Hawley
Yeah, exactly. I don't want to be locked down into something. There are times where I'm like, you should follow social norms and rules because like, I believe in them. And so it really is just about what speaks to you and what you feel you hold true. And I did like that she talked about, this is one aspect of your personality.

So it's not that all rebels look alike and that like you can have very kind and you know, compassionate, thoughtful people who fall into the rebel category and they wouldn't break certain expectations because, you know, like I think about with clients, I don't just not show up with my clients or cancel them arbitrarily because like a high value for me is showing up for clients and being there.

And so that's something at all costs, I make sure that happens. Now with other stuff for myself, I'm more likely to just be like, meh, and kind of break it, right?

And so... It doesn't have to be, I think people sometimes when they hear these things, they're like, oh, this is this type of person and this is the good kind of person to be and this is bad. And it's not that at all. We still can have many different personality types within this context, but it's about how you go about things, right?

00:15:18 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, yeah. And it was helpful for me to hear that because I was like, yeah, it is really, because this was, I mean, she created this out of the context of developing habits, right? Because that's huge for- motivating and why you're going to create a habit.

And it was helpful for me because it is a big struggle to create habits for myself. It is a huge freaking deal and feels like it shouldn't be a huge freaking deal, but it is. And it makes sense because we're the people who obviously have the most trouble.

So she goes through, you really have to identify that part of it that you want. So with rebels, it's not that they So we may not have that internal motivation, but we do have a strong sense of identity because of that freedom and choice. So as long as we're doing something and we can connect it to our identity, then just like you were saying, I think for you being a therapist and being a good therapist, and I think in general for you, being good at what you do is important.

And so if you're going to be a therapist, you're going to show up, right? So that's part of your identity. And if you're someone who's canceling on your clients all the time, Like that's not being a good therapist.

00:16:27 - Amber Hawley
Yes. In my mind, that's not a good therapist. Exactly. Let's go to the last one and then come back and talk a little bit more about the different.

00:16:34 - Maelisa Hall
You don't want to talk about rebels the whole time.

00:16:35 - Amber Hawley
I really feel like we could. It was so eye-opening. There were so many things about it. I was like, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. But yeah, the next one is the most people. I could give you so many examples. And in fact, just in the last two days, yesterday I had a volunteer.

I didn't have, well, I did actually. I had a volunteer at my daughter's preschool and we did her early birthday celebration. So I was bringing in the snacks and, you know, we got cupcakes and stuff. And I had a terrible night's sleep and was just exhausted and woke up later than I wanted to.

And didn't have a chance to eat or drink anything, so I had no coffee and no food. And I'm driving her to school and we're gonna be like a few minutes late. And I was like, you know, all the the way that this school is structured, I mean. they're great.

They're fine. They're good enough, but it's not my favorite way that they structure things.

But all they do is go through and I sit at a table and check off each kid as they do their task, whatever that task is for the day. And so if I'm a few minutes late, it doesn't change anything. The ratios aren't off. You know, it's not like they're going to be missing a core component or they're waiting to leave on a field trip or something like that.

Right. So sometimes would just push myself because I've hate being late. And so I would be like, Oh, you just got to go and suck it up. But I thought I am going to be miserable for the next three hours. And my day was three hours.

00:17:57 - Maelisa Hall
It's three hours.

00:17:58 - Amber Hawley
And my day was packed. And I just felt like crap. So I stopped and I got some food. Now it took like five extra minutes. And I got a coffee and something to eat quick and you know, picked it up and ate it in the car and got there. And I The teacher, of course, made a passive aggressive comment about the fact that I was, we didn't think you were coming.

You were so late, despite the fact that it was her birthday and I was bringing cupcakes and everything. But I literally was like, no, I made the right choice. Like that, it made no sense. Why did I need to, what is five minutes in the scheme of, I was a much more present, happy volunteer.

00:18:36 - Maelisa Hall
I love the comment. I love that. We were wondering if you were coming.

00:18:40 - Amber Hawley
Oh, I know. Oh. It got so much better from there, I'm telling you. I could do a whole episode on that, but I don't know that that would be relevant to a support system. It would just be a therapy session. But yes.

00:18:52 - Maelisa Hall
We'll talk later.

00:18:52 - Amber Hawley
I know. We could talk all day about that. So the last one is actually the biggest tendency. So the most people have this tendency and they're called obligers. And obligers are people who meet outer expectations, but struggle to meet expectations they impose on themselves.

And what I would say, I mean, this, I do believe, even if she hadn't told me this, I would absolutely guess that this would be the most common. And I also think it has a tinge of codependency in there.

00:19:23 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, sometimes the way I, when she's describing it, it sounds a little too needy. Is that what you mean?

00:19:29 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. Like codependent, meaning they sacrifice themselves and their own identity to meet others' expectations without taking care of themselves. And again, remember that personality wise, there's going to be a spectrum of how this shows up or what it looks like to people.
But probably because, you know, being in the therapy world, seeing a lot of codependency issues that I tend to see this one a lot as well. And it doesn't necessarily have to be codependent. So I'm not trying to say that, but I definitely feel there's a lot of overlap there.

So the thing with that is they are great. I love the example she uses of somebody who ran on track and they said they never missed track practice. They never missed a meet. They were so fantastic, but they could never get themselves to run by themselves on the weekend.

00:20:15 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, it's such a perfect example.

00:20:17 - Amber Hawley
Yes, they lacked the internal motivation to do so. They just, well, I would say motivation expectation. So they just couldn't bring themselves to do it. They're able to follow through on things when there's an external consequence or an external expectation, whether that's somebody expecting something from them or...

that somebody will be disappointed in them or that they just said, hey, I'm going to do this. They're going to follow through. So again, it doesn't all have to be, it's not all pathological. It's not all bad, right? But they just have a harder time doing that for themselves.

00:20:51 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. And I think it makes sense why, if this is the majority of people, why so many strategies for creating habits and you think of like working out is just such a great example. Because most people, I think, know that working out is a good thing to do.

You can actually see a physical benefit from it over time. You're not going to argue that working out is bad. Yes. And yet so many people don't do it. And why don't they do it, right? And you'll hear a lot of people, a strategy that gets them to work out is either going to a class they really like, like investing in some type of class.

Like you hear people talk about those boot camps, the hardcore boot camps that you go to. or having a workout partner. Like, oh, well, I have to go meet my workout partner. And yet just joining a gym where no one's actually waiting for you to show up or be there, that doesn't really motivate people in most circumstances.

00:21:46 - Amber Hawley
Exactly.

00:21:47 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. This is why you see so many of those accountability groups as a way for people to get things done or complete tasks.

00:21:55 - Amber Hawley
Yeah, and why they work so well, right? Because it's the external, the outer accountability. And because they are the majority of the population, that's a good strategy to have because it really does work for most people. So it's great. And so again, none of these things are negative.

It's just understanding how do I operate and what's my motivator? Because then you know how to work with yourself or work with somebody else in your life to be able to make things happen. And yeah, so it's one of those things where Ashley was describing it like, oh, you know, pay for a class that's really expensive.

There's an expectation or an investment in it. And I thought, yeah, that wouldn't do it for me. There would have to still be something else.

00:22:39 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. And yet on the flip side, I was just thinking like I have my mastermind and a big part of the mastermind and why I signed up for it was accountability, right? Yeah. And for me, it's not necessarily that I feel like, so every week we identify goals.

And for me, it actually is more of that rebel motivation. It's like, I don't want to show up. It's really not that I feel like I'm going to be a bad person if I show up and don't, like have not met my goal, right? Like if I tell them, no, I didn't meet my goal.

But for me, it's really important. I want to be the person who is doing that. who's showing up and being professional. And it's almost like a pride kind of thing, honestly. So it's not necessarily about letting them down. It's more like, this is the type of person I am.

00:23:27 - Amber Hawley
Right. And do you think though, I mean, I see you as somebody who does take a lot of pride, takes a lot of pride in being a good business person. And so I see that as the same thing of, you don't want to show up and say, oh yeah, I didn't even bother.
Didn't hit my goal.

00:23:43 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah.

00:23:43 - Amber Hawley
Because that would look bad. And so it's not about them so much. And I think that's where we've talked about before, where, you know, having a support system of people that you respect is really helpful. Because if you don't respect them, you might be like, yeah, that's all right.

00:23:59 - Maelisa Hall
Totally. And I have had that where I've had like, or even been part of groups, like in-person networking groups. And I'm like, eh, no, I'm not going. Because over time I really, and that's when I have to look at, okay, well, you know, this is not... a good group for me because it's not meeting whatever need, you know, or it's not serving this purpose or these are not the people that are going to help me grow.
Right.

00:24:23 - Amber Hawley
So she did on the interview, talk about how rebels and obligers tend to be good partnerships, understandably. Yeah.

00:24:32 - Maelisa Hall
And rebels and upholders are not. And who do you think, what kind of person do you think my husband is?

00:24:40 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. Yeah, I know. I thought about that.

00:24:43 - Maelisa Hall
I was like, that's a tough one. Yeah. And because my husband is an upholder, in case you didn't get that. And it was funny because as I was listening to that part, I was like, ugh. And then I was like, yeah, but that really, the source of a lot of our conflict is that stuff.
And I do think it relates to the P and the J in the Myers-Briggs.

00:25:01 - Amber Hawley
Oh, that does make sense.

00:25:03 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, to me. And those are big things. And I'm like, yeah, that's a lot of it.

00:25:07 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. And the obligers thing, They're great people to have on your team or in your network because they are somebody who you can count on and they follow through with things. And so, you know, there are a lot of benefits to having those people in your network for sure.

Just like I think there's benefit in having questioners in your network. Although, like we said, depending on your personality, that could be difficult at times. But I think it's about understanding their motivation and probably how they come across.

Because there are questioners who I think are very socially in tune with people. And so they're able to, they're more adept at it, right?

00:25:46 - Maelisa Hall
They have a way about them.

00:25:47 - Amber Hawley
So it's really, it's so varied. But I still think it's an awesome framework. I absolutely, you know, love the idea of thinking about things like this. it's one of those things too, where it's like, if you're beating yourself up all the time, like, Oh, you know, why do I keep doing this?

Or, you know, she talked about obligers about like, what's wrong with me. I'm just so undisciplined and I can't follow through. And it's like, no, you're just using the wrong tactics.

00:26:13 - Maelisa Hall
You know, to me, that was such a big part of it was like, it's, and we talk about this a lot, but maybe that's why it stuck out to me. Like, it's not about good or bad. It's just about when you know yourself and, then you know how to play to those strengths and those weaknesses too.

It's kind of like you can turn that weakness or perceived weakness into a strength.

00:26:34 - Amber Hawley
And that's the thing. That's why knowing yourself and really understanding this can be so helpful. And I think even just to give yourself some compassion and grace around that, to say like, okay, this won't work for me because of how I operate and how I think about things.

So like instead of beating myself up and trying to be the quote unquote right way, which I'm going to assume most people will feel the upholder is the right way to be, right? Like that's the good way to be because it's just so easy and they just follow through with everything.

And, you know, there are downsides of that. I think she talked about there can be some arrogance there. There can be some, like my way is the only way. And like, what's wrong with you? Why don't you just like get on board and do it? Like, why is this so hard?

They can come across it like, not as compassionate. Again, this is individual, right?

But that's why I think it's really important to understand that because then you, instead of thinking of right and wrong, you really can have a lot of compassion for yourself and those people either in your social network or your business network. It just, I think that understanding is so helpful.

One thing that did come up as we were going through this was I thought about the impact of different diagnosis or disorders that come up, how they would actually impact this.

00:27:50 - Maelisa Hall
100%.

00:27:52 - Amber Hawley
And, you know, so I think about, I can even picture somebody right now, I have quite a few clients, actually, but one in particular, I'm thinking about who is an obliger, that is, I would say that is their nature 100%. You know, I get to hear how they're thinking about things and how they, the turmoil and stress they receive when not being able to follow through on expectations, especially for other people.

And And yet they're either ADHD or they're in burnout or something else is going on and they're not able to follow through and just how distressing that is for them.

00:28:25 - Maelisa Hall
Well, I think about like depression too, same thing.

00:28:28 - Amber Hawley
Oh, for sure. And so sometimes if you're in the thick of, let's say burnout or depression and you go, there's a quiz by the way. And if you go and take the quiz or you read the book, you might not be in a place where you're finding your true self in the test.

Because, you know, there's a lot of factors that are going to impact how you're looking at things, how you answer. And you might be thinking, oh, yeah, you know, I have no problem meeting other people's expectations. But actually, I haven't been doing that at all, you know, for the last couple of years.

And I'm just feeling so down, you know. So I think that that's an important thing to look at as well. Is there something else going on for you?

00:29:07 - Maelisa Hall
Absolutely. Yeah. Because I know that the ADHD thing, it was funny because when you think about like the Myers-Briggs, for example, like if you read the ENFP description, which is you and I, it's basically like describing someone with ADHD. And so you're kind of like, oh, okay, well, do all people who are ENFPs have ADHD?

Perhaps, I don't know.

00:29:29 - Amber Hawley
I have found some that aren't.

00:29:31 - Maelisa Hall
But definitely people who have ADHD, like they're not always ENFPs, right? And I feel like for me, it's easier to be an ENFP with ADHD because I don't stress out about a lot of the things that my ADHD is impacting. Whereas if you were someone like my husband's personality and INTJ, and I have seen people who are INTJ and have ADHD, and it's a much bigger stressor for them.

Right. Because it is impacting, like, for example, they want a lot of structure in their life. And so when they have trouble implementing that structure or when that structure is impacted in some way, it's just so much more difficult for them to adjust.

Right. So I could see that playing out with this too.

I feel like with the rebel, again, I kind of have it easy where I'm like, yeah, well, didn't do that. Didn't want to.

00:30:27 - Amber Hawley
And this is where I will say, I think initially when I was messaging you and we were going back and forth and I said, I still feel like I'm a rebel slash questioner. And then a few minutes later I was like, slash obliger. I just feel like I have so many of all of the components.

And again, these are tendencies, not 100% all the time things, right? Because circumstances influence a lot, you know, the people we're talking to or what the topic is. But I feel like for me, as a recovering codependency person, when you grow up in a situation where you tend to be a little more codependent, or the parentified child, that kind of thing, you actually do feel great distress and letting other people down.

regardless of, you know, whether you think it's right or not.

And I really have worked through that. And I feel like, you know, with therapy and age and wisdom and doing all the work I've done, that's not so much an issue for me. I mean, it still pops up here and there. So it's like that twinge of like, I don't want to disappoint that person.
So that's why I couldn't think I was a rebel. I'm like, I actually feel terrible disappointing people. But there are times where, I don't care because I have done the work and I'm like, yeah, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I'm not going to feel bad about that.

00:31:43 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. And I've had that too, where I'm like, if I disappoint my husband, who's somebody that I'm probably most likely to disappoint because I'm with the most and he relies on me doing things the most of anyone in my life. But a lot of times, this is where the struggle with ADHD comes in, where it is a lot of this ADHD stuff.

And I'll forget something and I'll let him down. And I do feel really bad about it. But it's not because I'm an obliger. But also that doesn't mean that just because you're a rebel, you never care if you let people down.

00:32:18 - Amber Hawley
Yes, yes. And just to know that, yeah, sometimes those... personality traits, or like I said, if you're struggling with codependency or like we said, depression or anxiety, those things are going to get to you in a different way. So I really think you have to read the whole thing to understand the framework.

And I do think maybe taking the quiz is helpful too, just to kind of get some different perspective, even though I know you have a feeling about that.

00:32:48 - Maelisa Hall
I don't think the quiz is that well done. to be honest, although it does seem to give accurate results. So maybe, maybe I'm talking out of turn, but I just find that the way a lot of the questions are worded, I don't think is really good. I think they need to have someone go through and just kind of revamp the quiz a little bit, but hey, it does seem to be accurate.

00:33:09 - Amber Hawley
Yes. I think at times it felt a little bit like those Cosmo quizzes where you felt like, well, none of these apply to me. Yes. And I think that's the frustrating part. And, you know, I'm sure there's absolutely no way to capture because there's so much variance, like we said, even among obligers, there's going to be so much variance.

So maybe the statement in there is, that was for the obliger per se. It might not relate to you even if you are one because there is the variance. So some of that might just be unavoidable, but I feel like everybody could take a look at something and have an extra set of eyes.

00:33:43 - Maelisa Hall
There's some double negatives in there that make the questions confusing. Just saying as someone who took a testing class, you had to create quizzes, but anyways. So- Just be warned because I tried to get my husband to take the test and he refused because he was like, I don't understand these questions.

00:34:03 - Amber Hawley
A little rebel in him after all.

00:34:05 - Maelisa Hall
I know.

00:34:06 - Amber Hawley
I know. I did wonder, but I was like, I don't know. See, that's circumstantial.

00:34:09 - Maelisa Hall
That's what we're talking about. I know. I know. When he's an upholder, he likes to know what to expect. And when he's like, this doesn't make sense. And then he was just like, I can't handle it. And I did want to say one last thing because I realized as I was thinking about these four types that online courses are are probably not the best learning method for the vast majority of people.

Yes. And you hear those statistics, right? That like online courses most of the time are never completed. A lot of them are never even started. And you think about, well, if the vast majority of people need someone like externally expecting something of them, then if you have an online course with no like community component at all, you're not going to complete it, you know, most likely.

00:34:53 - Amber Hawley
Right. Because yeah, unless you have a live component to your course, that makes so much sense. And, you know, you have some kind of accountability going on and some kind of live component. The upholders will do well because they do. That's just, they do do, but they are again, a small part of the population, but you're absolutely right.

And then, you know, thinking about it for us, the one course that we absolutely went through and did was, was because we lacked the bit of knowledge. It was the power of podcasting course with that plan. We actually needed the technical expertise, right?

So it wasn't like mindset stuff. It wasn't like overarching strategy, which I feel like we immerse ourselves in all of that. It was real technical knowledge and strategy as well. But then the other piece is we had each other.

And we are two people who don't like letting other people down despite being rebels.

00:35:50 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. Well, yeah. If we've been like, oh, we say we're going to do it, that's the type of people we are, right? And I will say, yeah, other courses that I have completed, they've had a component of that where it's been like, this was a big goal of mine and I needed this information to achieve it.

00:36:07 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. And you've said this before that initially there was the thought of us starting our individual podcast first. And, you know, you said we wouldn't have done it or, you know, maybe by now we would have, but we would not have kept our initial timeline because things popped up and life happened and struggles happened, like genuine things popped up.

So, but we powered through because we had this commitment to one another.

00:36:29 - Maelisa Hall
And then because we make shit happen, we need to.

00:36:32 - Amber Hawley
Word. And, you know, now that you said that thing about the courses and, it makes me think about that phone call I had last week where there's this, I guess it's a course if you will, but there's a lot of live components. Like there's a Facebook group that's very active.

And as they like to say, there's accountability there. But I was like, yeah, not in the way I'm thinking. And it was, it's a course that like, I highly respect the person who's putting it on. I'm a super fan girl and, And I think all of the information is super valuable.

I do feel if I actually went through and did it all, it would be life-changing. Genuinely believe that. And yet, when I had the discovery call with one of the coaches from that program, this is where I will be contrary. The strategy that pisses me off the most is the hard sell.

And it just gets under my skin. And then I'm like, nope, not doing it. Like almost the harder the cell, the less likely I will be to follow through. Now those subtle soft cells or ways of kind of, you know, looping me and those work so well. But the hard cell just pisses me off.
And then I'm like, nope, totally decided not doing it.

00:37:44 - Maelisa Hall
It's so funny you say that because I did have an example too of where I was like, okay, this is where I do get a little contrarian. There is one individual who I do not respect in our mental health community. And I do a lot of collaborating with other people who are marketing to mental health professionals, right?

So business coaches, people who do billing, all kinds of stuff. And there is one person where I was like, you know what, if this person ever reached out to me I don't care about their following. I don't care how big it is. I don't care what the circumstances.
I would say no.

00:38:17 - Amber Hawley
Yes. Even if the opportunity could get you on Oprah, I'd be like, no, because I don't want to be, yep.

00:38:25 - Maelisa Hall
Cause I was like, nope. Cause I do not believe in it. I do not want to align myself with them and I don't care. So I guess that's one of those things where I think a lot of people would be able to say, well, you know, my information is going to reach a lot more people.

It's going to benefit me. It's going to benefit these other people who cares if this person is kind of, you know, not a great person or not a respected person. But I'm just like, nope, can't do it.

00:38:48 - Amber Hawley
Yes. And this goes to, I think this speaks to how you do things again, because there are those times where that comes up for me. I just get very firm and like, no. And that's why sometimes people can think you're bitchy when you're a rebel. Yeah. Because you're just like, nope, done, not even going to have this thought, you know?

And yeah, you might be more adept at handling those things, maybe a little softer in it, but absolutely. So yes, those things do come up. It made me think of another example that Gretchen had given in either one of her talks that she gave her in an interview where she talked about what she learned as a business owner or as the boss, is that because she's an upholder, she said she would send emails to her team over the weekend because she just wanted to get something off her to-do list.

00:39:38 - Maelisa Hall
I love this example. I absolutely love it.

00:39:41 - Amber Hawley
And she has obligers on her team. And she had no idea because she's just thinking, I want this off my list. And she had no expectation that it would be done over the weekend or anything like that, right? It was just her sending off thoughts and getting rid of it.

But she had obligers on her team who were feeling the pressure of, She wants me to work over the weekend or she wants me to get this done. And because there wasn't the conversation around like, when is the expectation for this? Or, you know, when is this due or whatever?

They started to feel resentful and to feel a lot of pressure. And so luckily, the person actually came to her and said something because I've seen this. I've seen this with people I'm working with in counseling or just friends where they'll just quit or something like that because they're super pissed off.

And I'm like, have you had a conversation yet? And so this person came to her and explained it and she's like, oh, I had no idea.

So she said what she started doing is using the delay email feature in Outlook. So she would write the email and then just set it to go out like Monday morning so that it wasn't just going off when she sends it off. And I think, you know, it's small things like that.

It's like, again, she wasn't a jerk or anything like that. She just, it just didn't occur to her.

00:40:52 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, and I love how you hear in her voice when she's like, honestly, I never would have thought that. Because she's just thinking about what she's trying to get done. She has no expectation of them doing that. And so it was like so far beyond anything in her realm of possibility.

And yet it was like eating at this employee.

00:41:09 - Amber Hawley
Yes, yes. And so, yeah, she gave a few other examples that I think are so good, which is why I do think it's valuable for people to take a look at the book. Either, you know, her first one is... better than before. And that's the whole one about creating habits and, you know, making positive changes in your life or the four tendencies, which came out of people asking her for more information about those that she had established in the first book.

She also has a podcast.

00:41:37 - Maelisa Hall
I think it's just called Happier.

00:41:38 - Amber Hawley
Yes. Happier with Gretchen Rubin. It's her and her sister. It's awesome. So there are many ways to kind of get more information about that. And she really goes in depth because there's just so many great examples that she gives that I'm like, oh, my gosh, yes.
Like, I know, you know, the thing where she talks about the dishes in, like, an office setting and how some people are like, well, obviously, if you're a moral, considerate human being with any sense, you're going to wash your own dish and put it away.

And she said, well, not actually. And I, you know, I was, like, thinking, well... I want to know the logic of the person who thinks, no, I don't need to do my own dishes. But what I was struck by was the person who's like, I have so much on my plate, but now I have to clean up all these dishes because it's such a mess.

I was like, oh, those people I know. I've seen those people.

00:42:30 - Maelisa Hall
Or the, oh crap, I didn't realize I only have like a minute to get to where I need to go. So I'm going to come back and wash this dish in an hour after the meeting.

00:42:40 - Amber Hawley
Right.

00:42:41 - Maelisa Hall
Maybe have been that person.

00:42:43 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. And I'm sure we've all had this in our relationships, right? Like where it's you say to somebody, okay, yeah, I'll do that. But you might not have the same timeline as them. And so sometimes people feel that's super inconsiderate and wrong. And it's like, no, it's actually just the way you're looking at things.

And this is why you got to talk about it. Well, when are you going to do it and have that conversation, you know, in a non-attacking way, of course.

00:43:07 - Maelisa Hall
Right. Right. And on the flip side, when you find out that something really irritates someone, just like the Gretchen thing, sometimes you're doing something that you have no idea is irritating someone. And as soon as you hear that, you're like, oh, okay, well, I can change that.

00:43:20 - Amber Hawley
But you just had no idea. Yeah, no awareness that that was even an issue. And that's the thing. When we make assumptions that, and I do it too, I have made assumptions about people lacking common sense and rude and inconsiderate. because it was something I believed should happen.

I have done that too. But when we don't do that, when we can understand that people might not be looking at things in the same way that we are, that they have different perspectives or other things going on, it's like be willing to just say what you're needing or have that conversation to kind of clarify things.

It goes such a long way.

00:43:57 - Maelisa Hall
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for listening. This has ended up being a longer than usual episode, but- It's a lot of fun to talk about. And I think it's so interesting hearing those examples of when people are thinking about one situation so differently when they're both in it.

00:44:14 - Amber Hawley
Yes. And yeah, I feel like we could go on and on and on about the different tendencies and how that impacts your biz bestie relationship or even like your tribe or, you know, your small group dynamics, your support system. there's just so much stuff. So definitely check the book out, take the quiz and power through, even if it seems a little irritating at times.

00:44:36 - Maelisa Hall
And maybe it won't bug you at all. And so we'll definitely link to the quiz on our website. So you can check that out at mybizbestie.com and make sure you're subscribed because next week we are going to help someone find their biz bestie. So you don't want to miss out on that.

00:44:55 - Amber Hawley
It would be amazing.

00:44:56 - Maelisa Hall
Yes. And if you are looking for that community still, looking for that support system, whether that's an accountability group or just support, make sure that you are on our email list because we are going to be giving out details about our upcoming retreat, which will be happening in the fall.

And we are super excited to announce it. So sign up so that you can get all of the details about that awesomeness.