And that, my friend, is perpetuating the story in your head that you’ll never be wealthy.
On today’s episode, wealth and money mindset coach Natalie Bullen is sharing her insight and experience from filing for bankruptcy to helping women, particularly women of color, shift their mindsets around finances and money so they can step into the wealth they deserve and desire.
Natalie’s energy makes this conversation so much fun and she delivers some real truth around how we’re positioning our own thoughts about money, how we treat our money, and the action we need to take to change our own story around money. Women need to stop thinking that helping clients means charging low rates and we need to start charging more so we can take care of ourselves and our families and be a good example for our clients.
You don’t want to miss this episode!
About Natalie Bullen:
Natalie Bullen is a wealth and money mindset coach from Mobile, AL. As the owner of Unapologetic Wealth, she teaches financial literacy, money mindset work, and sales training for introverts so they can step into the wealth they deserve and desire. She is also a Financial Planner who shuns traditional personal finance values rooted in shame, guilt and fear and encourages followers to dream bigger, increase their prices and magnify their gifts.
Links and Resources:
- Follow Natalie on Clubhouse @NatalieBullen
- Visit Natalie’s website
Time Stamps:
[1:40] – Big energy for talking about money
[2:36] – We’re all working through some things
[3:28] – Women of color have been written off as unhelpable
[4:33] – You can’t budget your way out of poverty
[7:36] – Changing the way you think about the challenge you have
[9:24] – Be in alignment with your result
[11:36] – When you shift your perspective, great things happen
[13:33] – Be financially fit enough to compete in the wealth games
[15:11] – We’re waiting on permission
[15:45] – What got you to $100k isn’t going to get you to $500k
[17:16] – Natalie’s ambitious goals and deciding what’s most important right now
[19:53] – Be focused and utilize the thing you invested in so it works for you
[22:27] – Profit doesn’t grow over time; you have to plan for it
[23:28] – Mindset: If I don’t make profit, I don’t have to pay taxes
[29:04] – When you price yourself too low, you trap yourself into a situation where you’re constantly selling
[30:34] – We’re pricing ourselves into poverty
[37:37] – If your ideal client can’t afford to pay you, they’re not ideal
[38:31] – Your gift is sacred and not everyone deserves it
[40:50] – It’s about boundaries
[45:10] – Start showing up for your own wealth
[48:30] – You’ll always be met with fear and hesitation; you just can’t let it stop you
Transcription
Amber Hawley 0:01
Business owners are increasingly being pulled in so many directions, feeling like they aren’t reaching their full potential in business in life despite their type aways. With my background as a therapist, entrepreneur, and as a.com dropout with ADHD, I interview and coach high achieving business owners like you who want to stop struggling for success by using psychological systems, strategies, and the occasional care plantation. This is the easily distracted entrepreneur, your place to slay overwhelmed perfectionism and shiny object syndrome so that you can get done what matters most to you. Welcome, welcome. I am so excited for today’s interview, because I’m talking to an amazing entrepreneur in our money mindset series. Her name is Natalie Bullen and she is legit awesome. And I think you’re gonna pick up on this really fast, but she is a money mindset coach, the owner of unapologetic wealth, and she is also a soon to be certified financial planner. And so she does like all the things when it comes to money. So please welcome Natalie. Hello, Natalie.
Natalie Bullen 1:15
Hey, I’m so excited to be here.
Amber Hawley 1:18
I know, I’m excited. I said that because you have a big, awesome personality. So I feel, I feel like it’s going to be one of those things that people are going to get your energy, you have a good energy. And that’s what we need. Right? When we’re talking about money stuff. We need to have that big, awesome, like, positive powerful energy.
Natalie Bullen 1:37
You know, that’s a good way to put it. I think most people have such a fearful, small, withdrawn energy around money that bring in bring in some big boss energy is probably the right thing.
Amber Hawley 1:49
Exactly. I mean, that’s how I felt when I got on the call we were just talking about, I had ordered my food late. So I haven’t had my lunch. I was feeling like low energy, but I was like, Man, you are you have this infectious energy about you. So I’m excited about today.
Natalie Bullen 2:04
If you knew how tired I was, you would hold it that is really an immense compliment.
Amber Hawley 2:11
Okay, well, we like that you can bring it when you need to. So why don’t you tell the listeners just a little bit more about you and your business. And then today we’re going to jump into talking about money, mindset and resilience. Because I think that’s a super powerful thing for all of us business owners that we are always dealing with, right at any level in our business.
Natalie Bullen 2:33
I think it is true that everybody’s working through some things. It’s good to have a partner, I hope to be your partner and well I am Natalie Bullen and I have been down this winding road of how do you turn a meager income into wealth for about a decade now. And I have been on the good side of money where things were working out well. And I’ve been on the bad side of money where even though I followed all the rules and worked two jobs, I still ended up falling bankruptcy because of a health challenge that led to a bad breakup that led to a job loss. So people look at me now and go, Oh, of course you feel it’s easy to make. Well, of course you think you can do all these things because you’ve never been broke before. So I just love to dispel that myth that I in fact, spent a lot of years broke. I feel an obligation to women, especially black women, and Hispanic women, because we’ve been written office is unhelpful. The the financial services industry really isn’t involved in us. They really don’t see us as a player. The average financial advisor is a 52 year old white man. And if you talk to them, they are not targeting women as clients. They’re certainly not targeting black women as clients. And I’m in Alabama, which is the second poorest state. So you’ll notice a lot of the big firms don’t even have a presence Bank of America, Chase TD Ameritrade fidelity. They don’t even have a presence in my state. That is how little they regard the black population and the female population in Alabama. So I am really on a mission is really my ministry to bring wealth to underserved communities. All women aren’t poor, all black people aren’t poor, all Asian women are all Hispanic people aren’t poor. These are just myths that have been perpetuated. And I hate the fear and shame and guilt of the financial services industry. You pick up a personal finance book, and what does it tell you? You’re a failure because you’re not on a budget and you drink coffee at Starbucks and you eat avocado toast and that’s why you’re poor. And I’m the antithesis of that you can’t budget your way out of poverty. So that’s a myth in and of itself that a budget alone will help you. Right, I made a Facebook post. What is the one thing that is keeping you from the wealth you deserve and desire and about a third of the people put a budget and I thought to myself Is this just good marketing? Are they pulling my leg? A budget just tells your dollars where to go, it just gives your dollars a job, it doesn’t make more of them. Right? You’re broke. Now you’re gonna be broke when you do a budget? How could that create wealth? So I’m so interested in how we’ve been hoodwinked. And I love pulling the curtain back to show people, what actually creates wealth, and how we can do more of that.
Amber Hawley 5:27
I love that so much. I mean, you said a lot of really powerful things, actually. But I especially like even just the normalizing, you did everything right. And you still had this period where you had to file for bankruptcy, because sometimes life happens that’s outside of our control. But then there’s all those layers that you talked about these layers of, you know, opportunity and kind of, are you being focused on? Are people even wanting to speak to you about building wealth? Do they think you qualify, and I think that builds in some of the systemic stuff that keep people from being able to reach wealth or to feel that they can do so. Right. I love that, and I laugh about the you can, with your broken, you budget, you’re still going to be broke like it’s, it’s to, I think that that takes a lot of shame out of it for people, because I know, for a lot of people, it’s like, oh, if I had just stuck to my budget, then I would be fine. And everything would have worked out. And you know, obviously paying attention to your spending is important, right. But there are so many other factors that impact us, and especially as business owners. So I think it’s such a powerful mission that you have.
Natalie Bullen 6:40
It’s a journey. I enjoy it is not always easy, but I think it’s really worthwhile. It has to happen. But making people feel guilty or shame is actually part of the design, because then it makes them feel as though the onus is on them to fix themselves. Instead of us saying, You know what, we’re in a system that kind of traps people in middle class, and that is very intentional.
Amber Hawley 7:05
Yeah. So I guess then if you’re saying, Okay, so the budgets aren’t the problem. And I agree with you, I do think it is this thing of like, there’s something wrong with us. And so I just need to be doing it better. I think that’s something I hear a lot from the people I work with, even from myself sometimes where it’s like, if I just did it better, I would be further along, I would have more money, I would XYZ, I would have finished the thing, whatever it is, what is it then that you think is helpful? Or where should people start in that process?
Natalie Bullen 7:37
Well, I’ll give you a quick example, in 2020, I lost 40 pounds, I’m sedentary and overweight, and not interested at all in any physical activity. So I just wanted to give people a rundown. I can dance I used to do ballet and gymnastics, but that’s when I was young. And I’m old now. And I don’t do any of those things. So for me to lose 40 pounds, which was, let’s see, I was about 200 pounds, 210 pounds, that’s a significant number. Okay, for me to lose 20% of my body weight is a significant amount. You know how I did it? I did it because I started to view myself as an athlete. So previous years, every time I went on a diet, I viewed myself as an overweight person on a diet. I am an overweight person, and I am taking an action I’m performing an activity me Natalie, the overweight person is choosing to eat less and exercise more in an effort to become a different person. This time I chose something different. I said, I’m an athlete. Me, I am an athlete. So then it became well, what would an athlete eat for breakfast? What would an athlete do after they ate breakfast? Would they lay out on the couch and watch TV or they go for a walk? What would an athlete drink? And what would an athlete think and what would an athlete spend their extra money on I started buying workout clothes. So that looked the part I bought a really nice workout here like $100 leggings and I used to buy little cheap crap and target or whatever t shirt I had left over. But like I bought clothes, I bought expensive walking shoes. I met up with other athletes, other people who are looking to lose weight other people who are already fit, I started walking with people who were already walking 10 miles a day, and I started walking just one mile. I treated myself like an athlete. That’s why I lost the weight. Because I was in alignment with my with my result my belief was that I was an athlete. So the result was I became an athlete. If your belief is that you’re an overweight person on the diet, then your result is that you’re going to be an overweight person who failed in the diet. So the answer to the wealth continuum is how do you view yourself if you view yourself as a poor person with a budget Well, what is your outcome going to be? yourself a different way you got to view yourself as a wealthy person whose money just hadn’t hit the bank account yet. Okay, then you ask yourself what would a wealthy person do wealthy people don’t do this? No. All methods, they don’t stop drinking coffee and Starbucks, they don’t get on strict and restrictive budgets, wealthy people earn more money. And then they take that money and they invest it in a number of vehicles that don’t require them to work. As a matter of fact, per Fortune magazine article that I read about 10 years ago, only 10% of the top 2% wealthiest people in this country, only 10% of their wages of their income comes from wages. So that means that 90% is non wage income, dividends, royalties, property, rental income, etc. Meaning they can quit their job and keep 90% of their income. How many middle class people do you know like that? They can quit their job and keep 90% of their income.
Amber Hawley 10:47
So fascinating.
Natalie Bullen 10:48
So we’re going about it the wrong way. We’re we’re broke asking other broke people how to get rich. Which is exactly what we what I did with my health. I will find other overweight friends go girl, we need to lose weight. I am struggling, they will go girl me too. We didn’t lose any weight. We just commiserated. Right. But when I found people who were already fit, they were like, oh, yeah, I can help you Sure. I’m going working out in 30 minutes. Actually, you want to come with me? And I’m like, damn, 30 minutes. Wait, wait, I thought I was gonna have like weeks to prepare. They’re like, you’re not gonna work out for weeks. We work out every day. And I’m like, Oh, crap, I got myself into something. But it’s the mindset shift. So the first thing is deciding you want to be wealthy. Just the decision.
Amber Hawley 11:33
So now I think people know what I was talking about. That is the mindset magic. This is why I’ve been hearing about you from so many people. That right there. I’m like, I can barely contain myself. And it is so fantastic. Because we do we know even from like research, if you embody, if you have a shift in Persona and who you think you are. That’s when those habits become automatic. That’s when those changes happen. Right? But the way you just broke that down. It’s such a fantastic explanation. I love it. I love it beyond anything. Yeah, it’s just so powerful and good timing, because I’ve been watching the Olympics and thinking I’m an athlete. So I’m gonna hold on to that one.
Natalie Bullen 12:17
And I did and I’ll tell you the truth. When I talk to this guy, my financial advisor is the one who told me I was an athlete, by the way, right? So yes, advisors have advisors. Yes, I have a financial advisor. I just want people to know coach them coaches, advisors have advisors, mailman don’t deliver their own mail. So I questioned him. He was like, you’re an athlete. And I was like, Bobby, I am not an athlete. He’s like, why aren’t you an athlete? He’s like, what does an athlete have that you don’t have? I’m like fitness mostly. He was like, no, no, like, what doesn’t happily do that you don’t do? Like why aren’t like what would it take you to be an athlete, and I was like, a competitive sport to play in physical Pro Plus Pandoc coordination. An endorsement deal. I don’t know something. He was like at the core. An athlete is just a person who is dedicated to an athletic endeavor. That’s it. They don’t have to be on Olympics. They don’t have to be Serena and Venus. He’s like, is Beyonce an athlete? Like, I guess people will quantify that a dancers Nafisa? Will you like to dance, be an athlete, be an athlete, the dances? I was like, I don’t know, doesn’t sound like now but he said, But what would it take you to be an athlete because that’s what you need to go do. He’s like, it’s an action. It’s not a placement, you make it seem as though someone else has to give you the title of being an athlete, you can give that to yourself. He’s like Serena Vina started when they were children. They probably weren’t by the world standards, athletes, right? But they were already beginning an athletic endeavor, that view that position them for their success. He said, Trust me, if you get really fit, you start lifting weights, you might start getting offers, just like other people get offers to be in competitions and then run races. That’s how it starts. You just have to get fit enough to compete. And I was like, Okay, so that’s what I want my clients, I want my clients to be financially fit enough to compete in the wealth games. Oh, that’s good. That’s good. I want my clients to be financially fit enough to compete in the wealth games.
Amber Hawley 14:26
I love it. And it’s a powerful question. Like you said that. Okay, so I’m a wealthy person, what decisions what does a wealthy person do? What do they eat? What? How do they structure their day? It is shifting the questions, but I love the piece where you say it’s like, you get to say, I’m wealthy. I’m an athlete, whatever the thing is, you don’t have to wait for someone else to tell you you are. That that’s what we normally do. We’re waiting on. Someone’s okay. We’re waiting on permission, you know? I see that in sales a lot. I don’t consider myself a sales trainer. My clients would argue vehemently. But I’ll meet people who struggle with the sales and the pricing, because they’re waiting on permission. They’re waiting on someone to say, yes, you may take 10,000 of my dollars in exchange for a solution to my problem. how life works? Ain’t nobody gonna tell you that you might have to get yourself permission to region people pocketbook. Give yourself permission, you started the business to make a profit. Did you not? Did you lie? I was drawn to your title your podcast, because I’m like, we’re so distracted. As a people we’re not focused, right? So again, quick example. Say you’ve got somebody who runs a business that makes 100k a year gross. Most people will say that’s a good business, right? That’s making money consistently every month, they’re probably able to pay themselves a little something, buy some equipment feel good about themselves? What if that person wants to grow to a $250,000? Year? Well, what got them to 100 is not going to get them to a quarter million. And so a lot of times people will invest at the level of business they have and go, Well, I only make $8,333 a month, I really don’t want to invest $10,000 In that program, I don’t know if I can afford, you know, big expensive podcast, you know, microphone, I’m not sure if I can really swing the production with Zen caster just yet. I don’t really know. Like, they start to make excuses and decisions based on the revenue they have. Yeah, instead of the revenue they want. Because if you can make an investment that grows you to 20k months, then it was worth it. Whatever you spent, they got you for those $8,000 months, but then you got to have some confidence that that’s going to happen. And you got to get laser focused and say, Is this investment is this program? Is this coach, is this website? Is this investment platform? Is this financial advisor? Is this blank? Going to get me to my next goal? If the answer is no, don’t buy it. That doesn’t mean you can never do it just means maybe not right now, I’m going to tell you, ambitious is probably a down play of what I actually have. I’m probably nuts. But we’ll call it ambitious. Okay, I want to write a book, I want to launch a podcast, I want to have a course I want to have a lead magnet, I want to totally rebrand and website, I’m launching a financial advisory service. I want a freebie on that side. I want a website on that side. I want 10 paid speaking engagements, I want to be on 50 podcasts, I want to get my CFP designation, I want to get registered with the SEC, those are my list of things that I want done in the next month or so. Ideally, right? You’re gonna say year and I would still be ambitious, ambitious, and I got the content.
Natalie Bullen 17:51
But my point is, I can’t do it all at one time. So I have to temper myself and go what is most important So right now I’ve decided to systems and automation is important. The website and rebrand is important. Studying for my certified financial planner that I’ve already paid for is important. Adding a third, fourth and fifth and sixth and seventh thing on that list. What’s the likelihood that any of it is done? Well, it won’t.
Amber Hawley 18:14
Exactly that won’t get done well,
Natalie Bullen 18:16
I’m going to take crappy care of the clients I have now I’m not going to have time to prospect more. I’m not going to get back with my brand new specialists. I’m not gonna have time to meet with my advisor, I’m not going to hit my escort deadline, we have to get focused on what brings in the dollars and for most people, they skirt revenue generating activities because they make them uncomfortable, a whole a holiday rather not sale they’ll do anything but sale in market and charge more anything. They will price themselves into poverty and sale bare minimum and keep themselves busy with funnels. I’m like what you need a funnel for if you don’t make that $1,000 a month in your business. Right? funneling people into
Amber Hawley 18:58
your right because what I see with people and like, you know, I’ve been in business for this my 11th year and I grew my first business to over half a million dollars. And it was something like as I was going, I was like, I want to be doing something else. So it wasn’t even like wholeheartedly hole in it is kind of was a little bit problematic. But the part that I always did well was like you said investing in what I’m going to need to get to the next place. It was never like, oh, that’s you know, I’ve seen people like Hammond Hall for $50 a month. And I’m like, Well, you know, even if I didn’t have it, I would figure out okay, I’m going to do this thing. I don’t care if it’s 3000 or 4000 I knew that that was the thing that I wanted to do and focus on and get me there and so I think that is an important piece of not always focusing on where you are but where you want to go and then be willing to invest in it. But what you said was really important and this is something you know I help people with with the focus and clarity is you have to then be Focus to utilize that thing you invested in, so that it actually works out for you. Right? And I’ve done it before I’ve been I tell people all the time, I’ve invested in things and then gave no attention to it. And I was like, Well, of course it didn’t work out. Right.
Natalie Bullen 20:14
And it has to work out. I think people try to pay their problems away. Of Would you believe that? I have had people hire me, pay me 1000s of dollars and not book calls? Oh,
Amber Hawley 20:27
100%.
Natalie Bullen 20:28
I’m floored. I actually, now you can’t get on my calendar for unlimited coaching. Unless you’ve already been through a program with me, because I don’t trust new people to stay motivated enough to book their own halls. And I’m like, How can I see someone 1000s of dollars in that book, the cause, like because my, my headaches, but I don’t give a damn what I am. I’m going to be comatose. That’s the only way you get money out of me. And I’m not looking to call. You know, I had a call this morning. You know, I didn’t want to have it. You know, I was so sleepy. I felt like I could fall on my chair. But I paid that woman money. And it wasn’t nearly what I would have charged. How about that, for hourly rate is about a third of mine, I still showed up because I’ll be damned if Kevin’s $20 I’m going I swear I got a friend who goes dance classes, they’re like 2030 bucks, I was exhausted one night, I drove my butt out there because I just couldn’t stand the fact a loser. Even $20 I’m so tight. My hands will tell you I’m not if I pay, I’m showing up you’re showing it is a 16 hour day is a 16 hour day because I’m not paying and not showing up. But that’s because I have a day, it’s just a non starter for me, I have to be successful, it’s inevitable, it has to happen. And because I don’t know how much time God’s gonna give me, I don’t know how expedited my timeline needs to be. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna expedite it. And there’s a phenomenon, I really learned the name of it, I talk about it so much. But basically, however much time we give something is how much time it will take. So if you give yourself the whole weekend to clean your house, it’ll take all weekend. But if your mother in law calls and says, Hey, surprise, I’m at the airport and I’ll be landing in an hour, can you come get me magically, your house will get cleaned in an hour, clean enough for your mother in law show up. So we take as much time as our brains allocate, I’m just not going to give myself 1020 years to be wealthy, I’m going to do it like next year. And because I’ve set this this aggressive goal, I’ll probably hit it for no other reason that I’m dead serious about it. And I’m not going to drag it out till my motivation wanes. And I think that happens a lot to people listen to these statistics. people’s businesses aren’t profitable for two or three years. That’s crazy. To me, my business was profitable in two or three months. What are we talking about profit doesn’t just grow over time, you have to plan for it. You have to like create profit, you have to like make it from the very beginning. And so I thought that was interesting that people would stay in profitless businesses for years, how do you stay motivated?
Amber Hawley 23:09
Oh, my gosh, I know. And I don’t know who’s out there telling people that I was like I was profitable in month one, and that was
Natalie Bullen 23:15
the IRS perpetuate some of that. So you can have a loss on your business like two out of every five years or three out of every five years without like an audit or something like people have all these myths out there about how that’s abuse. I think that’s just gotten misconstrued by Oh, the IRS knows that I probably won’t make a profit for a few years. Okay.
Amber Hawley 23:37
Right. But do you think I think sometimes, too, there’s the money mindset of like, oh, well, if I don’t make a profit, I don’t have to pay taxes. Like that’s a thing to be avoided. And it’s like, if you’re making something to do, and when you’re making enough money, like paying taxes is, I mean, nobody wants to pay taxes, right? But it’s like, that’s proof that you have been making profit that you’re doing well, and that’s just part is, you know, my husband calls it my silent partner. That’s my silent partner, you got his cut, so, but I agree with you, and I mean, you’re you’re obviously somebody who’s super focused, that you’re not going to throw away anything, even if you only spend $20 on it. Like, is that that’s hilarious.
Natalie Bullen 24:15
It’s the worst day ever. I’m so tired. I’m like, oh, no, like, but it works on me. It works. In almost every category, there’s very few things where I’m like, I’ll just lose the money. Like, gives me physical like chest pain.
Amber Hawley 24:30
And some of that is personality, right? That’s the thing that you have to honor like permanent because I help so many people with burnout I probably give the opposite advice often
Natalie Bullen 24:38
me too. Well, I give the advice of don’t pay for it. If you’re not gonna do it. I just don’t almost like like, you know, don’t put it on your plate. If you’re not going to eat it coffee, like just know that know your limit when I say which is why I’m not creating the course right? The second I’m not writing a book right this second and I’m not launching a podcast right to say I want to do it. All three of those things, but I’m not gonna do them well and paying for program, and then half doing it would give me physical pain.
Amber Hawley 25:08
Yes. And I think we start to learn that as time goes on, because that’s, you know who I help. I’m the impulsive ADHD purchaser. And I really feel like, I’m an adult, sometimes that’s a terrible way to word it. But I do feel I call it you know, I’m like, I’m adulting. Because I actually said no to two things that I really want to do that I’m so excited about. But they don’t fit my plan for this quarter. And there’s no way I can add more to my plate. So it’s kind of one of those things where it’s like you learn over time. And sometimes we commit to things and realize, like, Oh, that was too much, or, you know, we don’t take that jump on things. And we’re like, okay, I could have I should have added that. But now you get to make that decision. It’s always a learning process, right?
Natalie Bullen 25:50
It is. It’s ongoing, like, I’m in one too many commitments right now. Yeah. And I haven’t been getting the most of it. And I’m not going to beat myself up about it. So I’m just like, Okay, I have to assess, you know, what is the most important that commitment wraps up March the 10th. So I’ve told myself, I’m going to reassess my energy levels where I’m at with the launch, where I’m at with the coaching, where I’m at with the podcast, you know, with the goal, because I’m kind of tracking things and tell him and then make an assessment. But between now and then I’m actually not signing up for any more programs or getting any more just anything, you know, consultations, I turned off my sales calendar at somebody trying to book a sales call. She’s like, you’re not available. So like March, I’m like, yep, that is my design. Because if I sold you today, which I could sell you today, I can’t onboard you until March. So might as well, just talking March,
Amber Hawley 26:46
yes. Knowing that’s the thing as we go on, especially, and we have more opportunities, the important thing is taking that time to reassess. And I think that’s how we learn. Like, sometimes we’re like, and especially there are different things, we go through that like lessen our bandwidth. So we might have committed and we had a certain bandwidth and some stuff happens. And now we’re like, okay, too much I got so
Natalie Bullen 27:08
me, oh, I’m an introvert. Oh, my God. so deeply. That’s why I don’t like commitments weeks out in advance, because I don’t know what my energy is going to be like that day, I wake up. I’m trying not to schedule like today, I had way too much schedule. So last night, and then when I realized I was over committed, I literally was like, Okay, I need to move one of these commitments. You made the cookie, but I need to move one of these commitments. And so I actually did a move one, and I sent her a DM and I was like, Hey, I’m moving. This is why I’m moving this and believe it or not, she wrote back in the middle of night like midnight, I’m so glad you did. That was my only commitment. And now I can have a day off. So it actually worked out. Like I think sometimes we’re fearful that people will like be mad or resentful. But I think there’s such a push around mental health now that they understand they’re more understanding, I would say. So that has been good for me as well, not having so much expectation that I have to be on all the time. Because that’s kind of how I feel. I’m a typical introvert, and then I’m loud. So when people think introvert, they think quiet and shy, which are completely unrelated. But that’s what people’s perception is. And so when people meet me, they’re like, Oh, my God, you’re the introvert champion, you can like go out and lead the charge. And I’m like, you talk about this, like, I’m an introvert too. I don’t want to lead any charge, and I want to go to bed.
Amber Hawley 28:36
And I want to say I think your meme is out there where like, you’re gonna lead the charge individually from your own homes in your pajamas, right?
Natalie Bullen 28:45
I’m gonna, like, lead the charge, like on my own time on Tuesdays between two and four in like an outdoor would people like a march? No, I’m not. I’m not doing that at all. And so, and you have to be true to yourself. And I think that also goes back to the business you want. Like, when people price the services really low. You’re trapping yourself in a service where you have to always be selling. So if you hate sales, if you hate people, if you have social anxiety, that’s even more reason why you got to charge more, you got to be like, creme de la creme, like at one point I was coaching like 12 people one on one. I love my one on one. Don’t get me wrong, but that’s way too many people for me calendar wise to have to have this much face to face interaction. I can’t by the end of the day, I’m just like, telling my husband don’t talk to me, you know, and like, he’s much more introverted than I am. So like, he’s probably relieved when I say don’t talk to me, but it’s still a thing to me to be like, Hey, I can’t keep up this pace, but I want to keep making this money. So what do I need to do to factor in my lifestyle, my temperament, my idiosyncrasies, my cost of living my insurances, the team that I want to have Want to hire somebody? Why do you hire somebody, you have no profit, right? And you have no recurring revenue, you have no money. And like who would want to work with you if you don’t have SOPs, and KPIs or job description, but if you don’t know how to do that, you need to pay someone to do that for you. How do you do that you don’t have money. So it’s, it’s circular. And a lot of what I see people, they’re stuck on a hamster wheel of, I don’t charge enough because of my fear of rejection, or my imposter syndrome, or my lack of sales acumen, or my broken money mindset, or these old money stories I’m attached to, like, money doesn’t grow on trees. I saw a comment in the group earlier today about kindness. And they had conflated kindness with low charging, they’ve been doing the kind thing by not charging them very much money. And I was like, first of all, it is not kind to work yourself into a poll. It is not kind to price yourself in such a way that you can support your family and grow generational wealth. And it is not kind to give people a half assed solution, because you can’t afford to give them the real solution because you didn’t charge them enough. Yeah, none of those things are kind to me, I would argue the opposite, frankly. So I think that it’s but that’s a common trope with women. I see it all the time, I’m trying to I’ll try to be nice. I’m trying to be kind of trying to be fair. And that’s why I pride myself in the poverty. And I’m like, Well, you can be kind and wealthy. This whole idea that like rich people are bad and mean is what keeps a lot of people stuck in this false nobility of brokeness. Yeah, you don’t have money to live the life that you want to live, you are earning beneath your purpose. Yes, if you are over delivering on top of goo ball, we over deliver and under earn. So it’s like, if a guy charges you like 10 bucks, he’s gonna do 10 bucks worth of work like he’s barely gonna work at all. Like if a guy charges you $5 You’re getting nothing. If a woman charge you $5 She’s calling you on the phone. She’s reading. She’s giving you a massage, like into the duality, I’m going to be kind by not and it’s like, what’s kind about allowing people to keep more of their money? How are you harming people by charging them an appropriate amount of money in exchange for a solution to their problem? Anyone who’s ever had a toothache or root canal or broken tooth knows, it ain’t no amount of money, you wouldn’t pay that dentist. Exactly. You when you break a tooth, you don’t even ask what it costs. You just call and go can you work me in today? Can you take me to day my mouth is killing me. And you get there, they pull it, they drill it, they whatever. And you get to the calendar and you settle the bill. No matter what he calls the money’s not even relevant. And no one seems to think that’s harmful. No one would expect that dentist to do the kind thing and say, well, the whole solution is going to be $2,000. I think I’m going to be kind and let you stay in pain. I’m just going to charge you 100 bucks. I’m going to nominate a little bit now the pain is going to come back in like three hours. But I think that’s the best thing for your for your pocketbook. How’s that sound? You’re like, Dude, you’re crazy. This is not kind like my mom has given me like, can you fix it? You know, I just don’t really want to take that much money from you think it would be harmful to you? Personally, I think I’d rather leave you in pain. It’s how nuts it sounds to live in pain, to allow them to keep more of their money. Like I don’t need your charity. I need your solution.
Amber Hawley 33:32
Exactly. I mean, right now I’m thinking you’re like the queen of analogies there. Because I mean that, like you said to use those examples. It makes it ludicrous. Like you realize like, but so many people are doing that. And trust me, as a therapist in the in the healer, therapist world, we are the worst at this like we are we have that helper mindset. And I always say to people, like, you know, being washed on you.
Natalie Bullen 33:56
It’s not even your mindset. physicians who are 70% male, don’t get the same conditioning that therapists and healers do, because they’re 70% women. So right, therapists say I want to make more money or I turn people away. They’re bad people. Oh, you show it to the doctor with no appointment and no insurance to see what’s gonna happen. And all it gets pushed off on women.
Amber Hawley 34:23
Well, and that’s the thing, it is systemic, it’s societal. But then and then there’s all that conditioning. And in addition, you know, I work with men and women and when you see yourself this goes back to being the athlete being the wealthy person. When you see yourself as I’m the person who helps others. I’m the one I’m the caretaker of everyone. It also becomes the single I’m taking money from people isn’t the caring thing to do, like you said, it’s really there’s so much deep conditioning in that and having to work through that. I’ve seen therapists throwing vitriol at other therapists for wanting to charge what they’re worth or make money. clients do it too. And it’s hard, right? It’s hard to go past that. And but I do think it’s such important work to say like, Okay, well, if I can’t take care of myself and my family, and I can’t even afford to pay all my bills, because I see this a lot in the therapy world where so many therapists are living in poverty. It’s like, how is that good modeling or even healthy for your clients? Like anybody? Yeah. How can you show up for them in that way, and it’s so awful. And like you said, I think that’s kind of ubiquitous across women. And like you said, especially when you get into people of color, like, there’s that thing that’s just been told to them for so long, that it’s really it takes a lot of effort to break through that stuff.
Natalie Bullen 35:42
There’s thing that gets pushed off on women, so I’m child free by choice. And until I met my beautiful husband really never considered changing, that he is adorable. He might, he might break me. But I’m 33. And I’ve never been like, oh, I have to have a baby. It’s so important. Like I went through my whole 20s my teens, you have had uterine fibroids and issues and I’ve never been like, oh my god, if I don’t have a baby, like, my life’s not gonna be complete, but that has been pushed off on me. People would go, you know, Natalie, you know, it’s selfish to not want children and you know, you’re supposed to be a nurturer. And I don’t see you taking care of a husband. I don’t see you getting married when I got married. And until anybody, we got engaged in February, we told a few people in April and just announced it after we were already married on Facebook. We didn’t have a wedding. We didn’t invite anybody when until invited. We didn’t give a damn. So people were shocked. And I thought they were shocked because they didn’t know. No, they were shocked because it was me. And apparently I have a persona that’s very, I don’t need a man. I’m very independent. I’m very strong, brawny paper towel kind of kind of person. And I thought that was so interesting that I was seen as like less feminine or less deserving, like who would want to marry me kind of thing. Because, because of who I am, and my, you know, resilience and sturdiness and, you know, rock hard picks. You know, it was really interesting that that was the perception of me. So I don’t get a lot of the conditioning, like people don’t push that crap on me because they don’t see me as that type of person. But I’ll meet women who feel like their clients or their children, they have to nurture and baby and love on them. They have to do what’s right for them. They’re like a fiduciary duty to their pocketbook. But no, the women I serve can’t afford that. So I have to serve them. And it’s like, let’s think about this. It’s an ideal client avatar. Ideal, you know, like a utopia. If your ideal client can afford to pay you. They’re not ideal. Yes, I’m saying you want to have children and your ideal man is child free by choice. It doesn’t make sense. He’s not the ideal that he doesn’t want what you want. If he wants what you want. That’s what Ding Ding Dang. That’s what makes him ideal. He looks how you want to look, he doesn’t you want to do that’s ideal. You’re not going to get it because nobody’s perfect. But like most people have already conjured up what their ideal mate looks like, or even their ideal job. If I say Ember right now, what’s your ideal job? best job in the world, you probably even if you’re not working a job, here’s some ideas. You’re like, oh, let me work from home and be flexible and pay me this much. And I have unlimited PTO, and I have connections and SEO like people already haven’t thought about it. When I ask them about their ideal client they sell will I be okay with the client? Who could pay me this and do this and do the why? Wait, what happens is ideal. Why is it when we’re talking about people, suddenly, it’s different. And I think it’s important to recognize that your gift is sacred, that you have something of value to give the world that everyone doesn’t deserve it. That doesn’t make them bad people, it just means that they’re not aligned. And you have to get your ego out of the way and stop trying to help everybody that is ego telling you that you can help everybody or that you should help everybody. I don’t even try to help everybody. Everybody ain’t ready for me. I’m so mills. I’m serious. I’m gonna jump on your back and go why you ain’t making no money in this business. Boom. We got to make this profitable. You ain’t gonna hurt me out here looking bad.
Amber Hawley 39:14
Okay, I’m not you even have people like you’re going man, you made nearly all the money in your business still don’t make anything. Damn, she got over on you. No, no, I’m not gonna have people feeling that way about me. So all my clients get results. I just rather not have clients I have to drag to success. I want clients who I can walk arm and arm. Stop dragging people across the finish line. Some people don’t want to win. Be a winner who wants the winners? Stop taking on clients that you look down on or feel sorry for I don’t feel sorry for my clients, even if they aren’t making the money that they deserve and desire. I don’t feel sorry for them. I’m excited because they have so much to grow and so much potential. Like when I’m looking Somebody that’s not making 10,000 a month in their business. I’m like, Yeah, we’re gonna get you 10k And it’s gonna be awesome. I don’t feel bad for them. It’s I feel like a lot of times healers and therapists, they feel bad for these people. They’re in a crisis, they have unhealed traumas, they feel compelled to help them, even if they don’t have the bandwidth, even if they’re not getting paid, and you’re not getting paid at all. They’re just like, I can’t leave her. And I’m like, there are programs, there are nonprofits, there are systems that can help those people. You don’t have to be a martyr, and lay down your degrees and your self worth. How does it help me if my therapist has a mental breakdown? Exam? Exactly. And I think we need to put that out there that the clients not always right, and that consumers have a responsibility as well to not push their provider to the point of mental breakdown.
Natalie Bullen 40:48
Yes. Well, I mean, basically, it comes down to boundaries, right. And I mean, that’s actually a huge piece of like burnout, prevention and taking care of yourself. And just understanding and I love what you said about not every client’s ready for you yet, right? Like, sometimes it’s like, you don’t have to create the thing to help all the people, you create what you’re called to create, and they can choose if they’re ready for it, what you offer, or they can go somewhere else and find a different solution, right? Like there’s options for people. But when you said it, it made me think about that. There’s like an adage in hiring, like a team, of if you have to drag them in, you have to drag them around. It’s that same thing, I think with clients, where it’s like, if you have to drag a client in, you’re gonna have to drag him around energetically, that’s exhausting as well. So it’s understanding that having that clarity, I think having that clarity in those boundaries is kindness.
Natalie Bullen 41:43
And it doesn’t say boundaries are the kindest thing you can have. It feels icky to tell people No, but what you’re actually doing is freeing them up for a guess where it’s most appropriate. Yes. So if I have someone who comes to me, who’s not making any money in their business, they don’t have the foundational business acumen, they don’t have a business bank account, they don’t have an EIN number, they don’t really understand how things work. They have no defined offer, they’re not even sure what their purpose is in life. They’re not best suited for me. Even if they could scrape off the 1000s of dollars to work with me. I don’t know what lever to pull to increase their success, because they haven’t had a proven track record of success yet. And they are probably working through some things confidence wise and purpose wise, that I’m not equipped to handle, I don’t do that work. That’s not my gift. So I can actually harm someone by taking their money and not getting them a result, or making them feel bad about themselves, because they’re not as far along as the other people in the program, or coaching them under duress, because they took money out of their 401k, or their savings to pay me or took a loan out to pay me and have no way to pay it back. Because I’m not going to be able to get them measurable success in three months, because we’re starting from ground zero. So you know what to do with those people. Thank you so much for reaching out to me, I actually work with business owners who have this, who do this and who are this because I have my bead, you have system who you need to be in order to qualify to work with me, what do you need to do in order to qualify to work with me? And what do you need to have in order to qualify to work with me? So if you don’t have those three things, have a nice copy and paste a little blurb might even leave you a voice note. And I have a Rolodex of coaches that I can refer them to let me know what your budget is. And I can refer you to someone else who’s more appropriate for you at this stage. I’m going to tell you as a person who’s been in a coaching program that was too far along for me, it harmed me more than it helped me. Yes. And I wish that she would have told me this is more advanced than you are. Because instead it put me in a position where I couldn’t win. And you may have picked up on my temperament that that’s not something that I handled.
Amber Hawley 43:55
Exactly. No, I agree with you on that one. And there’s a lot of things that come up for people. There’s that comparison itis as well, where they just feel like Oh, I’m failing because I’m not at this level. But they weren’t at that level. Like there wasn’t that congruent of level to begin with, right? This is something you know, early on in the podcast that Melissa, my co host and I talked about a lot because I think finding the right support is super important. So I want to be mindful of time. I know that I know you have a super packed day and again, feel privileged to make the cut as well. But honestly, I would have been the person who would have been like, that’s cool. We could do next. You know, what is one of those days next week is a client week. And so so I’m like no, or whenever, you know, but yes,
Natalie Bullen 44:46
it is my birthday. It would have been March, like a day or more. Today is better.
Amber Hawley 44:51
I know. Yes, you will. And that’s the thing. You got to make those decisions. So I think there were some really powerful takeaways as far as really impact being like, what it is that you want to be and coming from that place and making decisions from that place like I want to be wealthy, what does a wealthy person do? Like, what do I need to do? And how do I need to show up? And I think that’s a big piece of even just like your success that you’re talking about is your willingness, not just willingness, but a complete absolute determination to always be showing up to what you commit to. I think that alone might be the factor for so many people is what you come up for, yeah. Show up for your commitments. I think it’s hugely important. Then there’s, you know, like we said, the boundaries and kind of understanding yourself and getting through, there’s so much money mindset, stuff that that goes on for us. And, and I always say, it’s like that saying is a new level old devil, I have done a lot of money mindset work. But there are still times where you’re going for something else, or you’re doing something new, you’re putting yourself out there, where it comes up. And I have that same, you almost want to go to homeostasis and say like, oh, no, no, no, I’ll just price it here. I’ll do what you’re used to. Yeah.
Natalie Bullen 46:05
And you get accustomed, like, I’ll sell it at a price and go yeah, this person feels good. That is no problem at all. It cost this much leaving it deems is cool. And then my coaches like, oh, great, so you’re gonna go up on it? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. This is fine. This is fine. But then I remember, you know what, I do want a team, I do have increasing overhead. I have bought errors and omissions insurance, which if you’ve ever had that is super expensive. Like, I’m sinking 10s of 1000s into creating the new business. Right? For now. It’s a cash suck. So I’m like you right, I need to but like, even that adjustment, you know, I have a coach whose VIP day is five hours is 30k. Wow. That’s what I said. And her coach is Myron golden, whom you may have heard of. His programs are 55,100 55,000 and $1 million. And that is per person B to C. Prices. So yeah, so I was
Amber Hawley 47:05
I see my mindset coming up all the reactions.
Natalie Bullen 47:10
You hear these numbers? And so you know, she’s like, how would you feel to have a VIP day and I was like, Oh, that’d be great. I’ve been thinking about, you know, sell your ish intensive where like, I teach people how to sell like, actually sell, like, overcome the objection, get them pre sold on your content, and get the questionnaire together, get them a video with like, literally, by the time they show up to the call, it’s where do I pay? Because that’s not going to show up on calls, they pretty much show up is just a formality like, hey, it’s so good to meet you. Here’s my credit card number. Thank you, you know, for that solution, like, cuz I do so much service on the internet for free people like, Oh, crap, if I pay her, I know, I’m going to get the goods, you know. So Right. I come from a place of servant leadership. And I think that’s rare. I think most people only pop up when they want to sell something. And so it’s obvious that they want some everybody has that person in their life, when they call out. They want money. They want something because they don’t call right. But if you call people every week, they’re more likely to help when you do have a crisis. So I was like, Yeah, I want to VIP day she was like, great. Are you thinking about selling for 15k? Or 20k? I was like, oh, sorry. What did you ask? I didn’t even want to put the number. I will say again, because now my number sounds ridiculous, right? And she was like, well, it needs to be at least as much as your three month coaching. And I was like, I’m listening. And I’m nodding and I’m like, Oh, crap, I thought I had gotten past this. Okay, I got to uplevel again. So you’re always gonna be met with the fear and hesitation you just can’t let it stop you. The only difference between me and people who make less in their businesses, as coaches and consultants and teachers and etc, is that I just do a skit here. I get on the call. And I put the number out there anyway. And if they say yes, they say yes, if they say no, they say no, but I made the effort. And I’m learning that you can sell anything at any price. It’s really confidence. If I wanted to sell three months ago to me for $100,000. The truth is someone would pay it. Do I have the tenacity to ask for it is the question someone would pay it. And so that is where we get caught up, we start to diminish, we start asking questions that don’t matter. Like who would pay for that doesn’t matter who what their name is just yet, launch it, launch it and see, but if you don’t make it, they can’t take it. So there’s so much out there that you have to just really keep honing hopefully somebody got some nuggets out of this. If they want to just hear me talk forever and ever. I’m on clubhouse a lot you can follow me at Natalie bowling, or on unapologetic wealth calm and you can see what I have going on.
Amber Hawley 49:38
Well, thank you and thank you for wrapping that up so nicely. Yeah, I’m sure some people are gonna come over and listen, you do have some awesome. Like I said he might be the queen of analogies there because that one’s really I know. I’m going to be sitting in thinking about this one for a while. So thank you for sharing your brilliance with us. I’m sure people We’ll go How about all over to find more of you but yes thank you so much bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
The Inner Circle
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