Resilience and Resistance with Marisol Solarte-Erlacher

[00:00:00] Business owners are increasingly being pulled in so many directions, feeling like they aren't reaching their full potential in business and life. Despite their type A ways with my background as a therapist, entrepreneur, and as a. com dropout with ADHD, I interview and coach high achieving business owners like you who want to stop struggling for success by using psychological systems, strategies, and the occasional care frontation.

This is the easily distracted entrepreneur, your place to slay overwhelm perfectionism and shiny object syndrome so that you can get done what matters most to you. Hey there, everyone. Today I have a super awesome guest with me. I have Marisol Solarte. Her lacquer, who is a therapist and wellness consultant, and she has a big mission that she's on.

And I can't wait for her to share all the details, but welcome Marisol. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I'm super excited to be here. [00:01:00] Awesome. I know we met in a program, a thought leadership program that Carol Cox is putting on. And as you talked about the work that you're doing and you have a podcast that you have two podcasts, actually, you have one that you always do.

Right. And then you have a second one that you're doing as like this passion project. And I thought, Oh my gosh, I have to have you on because I think it's really important and powerful work. So thank you. Why don't you tell everybody just a little bit more about you and, um, and then we'll jump into your big project.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited that we met in the Thought Leadership Academy. It's been super fun and, um, just getting to know you and getting to know all the other women and trying to figure out what, what this whole thing on thought leadership is. Sometimes, sometimes sounds like bullshit to me. I'm sorry.

Even though I'm totally 100 percent down. Well, I actually reluctantly almost didn't even say the thing. Cause sometimes it feels like, Ooh, like who am [00:02:00] I? I know. I'm like, that means that it's like air. Right. But, um, so I am a, um, trauma expert, uh, and, uh, trauma therapist here in Denver, Colorado. And I'm making this big pivot.

In the work that I do and really focusing on thought leadership, really focusing on speaking and, um, doing a lot more training and workshops for all different types of organizations, companies, uh, anyone who wants to hear what I have to say, I guess. And I have a podcast called the resilience and resistance podcast, and it's a podcast focused on successful BIPOC women who are overcoming trauma and becoming resilient.

And that was really a, really was a passion project that was born out of my own experience and, um, just the experience of other women around me. And in, uh, my process of really trying to understand more of my message, I've come to this place of really wanting to talk about [00:03:00] how successful BIPOC women experience work trauma.

Uh, and that in order for BIPOC women to be successful, um, that trauma is a part of that process. So that is what I'm focusing on right now. Um, I have a capsule podcast project. This will be releasing at the end of the month called, uh, work trauma is real. And, uh, I'm super excited about that. I, uh, I'm still really, I think I get fired up about the message and then, um, have just kind of been immersed in trying to think through what that looks like and how that can be helpful in the world.

Right. And I, well, I think even just the fact that you're even talking about it is such a huge step because, you know, even though on this podcast, my goal is to kind of talk about the emotional side of business, like you're saying, there's this whole other layer that people within the BIPOC community experience that I think for so many people, they're just starting to become [00:04:00] aware of that either if they, you know, are part of the BIPOC community or outside of it.

Right. That parent traumas and I think even just that Understanding and kind of leading with that. I think will be really transformational You know, so that's why I absolutely was like this needs to be talked about and I think it's a really important powerful message Yeah, yeah It's been interesting I think in my process of doing the podcast and really I always joke on the podcast and with other people that it's really just a platform for me to talk to my friends That's all I do but um I think what I've come to understand is really just like, you know, I think my intent was to really talk about how our personal experiences, our developmental experiences really inform who we are as people presently, both personally and professionally, and how a lot of the ways that we adapt in our childhoods and adapt because of systemic racism and all the things that we have to deal with, that all of those things become strong [00:05:00] tools In our toolbox in terms of moving ourselves forward, but there's also another side to it.

There's also a way that those things can become barriers to our success, or they can, there's, there's things that we don't really get to look at and reflect on. Right. And with so many, you know, With anybody who's experienced trauma, which a lot, most, I feel like it's so hard. I feel like it's hard press to find people who haven't experienced it in their childhood or at some point or in their, in their lifetime.

But for so many people, you develop those coping mechanisms when you're younger and you figure out ways to kind of exist and, you know, be in the world. And then eventually they're, There comes this point in which they, those coping mechanisms can either be holding you back or keeping you from being like your true self because it is this trauma, you know, coping thing that's happening for people.

So can you say more about how you're [00:06:00] seeing that show up for people in particular? I think there are lots of ways that it shows up specifically for BIPOC women. I think that, uh, this idea of overfunctioning. Or, um, overachieving in childhood, uh, can be something that is becomes very functional as a way to get out of our circumstances and becomes very functional and being successful, right?

Professionally. But what happens is that becomes That's the center focus of how we start to understand and value ourselves. And I think that I see a lot of, um, that over functioning, over achieving, being very self reliant. Um, you know, being very focused on, I can take care of the things that I need to take care of.

Um, and I don't need to extend outside of myself for help or for support. And I also [00:07:00] think that there's a way that, uh, over responsibility, uh, toward others is really significant. I think for BIPOC women specifically, I, you know, I recently had a conversation. And, you know, the, the capsule podcast with a friend of mine, who's a CEO.

And we talked about this idea of responsibility, not only to ourselves and to the work that we're doing, but responsibility to our families, responsibility to our community. And I think specifically, I think because you, for a lot of successful BIPOC women, there is a sense of, or the reality that we are, we are The only in certain very specific situations, right?

And so there's a way that that responsibility really takes on a life of its own in terms of how we speak for our community, who we are, how we achieve, how that's That perception is played out in our, you know, outside of ourselves and then what that means to other women who don't have [00:08:00] examples. Um, and so I think there are lots of ways that plays out and I think it's really important to have these conversations because I really think that part of what my hope is is by opening up the dialogue that we can make our work and our contributions to whatever we're doing, um, more sustainable.

Right. And I think, you know, when I think about that over self reliance, you know, that, that extreme independence is often a trauma response. Right. Right. And the thing is that people who are high achieving, and like you said, successful goal driven kind of, you know, the weight of the world on their shoulders, they're seen as like, Oh, they got it all together.

They take care of everything. And there's, there's this. Even more of a pressure to be perfect And so it's even to understand that internal pressure, but there's that [00:09:00] external pressure of being held to a different standard than anybody else and I think those are the people who Often get kind of overlooked Like i've even seen that when I have a group practice and i've been supervising therapists for eight years and I can remember, especially, you know, with newer therapists working with them and they're like, Oh yeah, they're good there.

I saw them for like three sessions and they're fine. And I'm like, wait a minute, what's going on here. And as we talked about it, it's like, because they show up, they're successful. They look like they have it all together. And so it's like, Oh no, you're good. And I can't tell you how many times I've even had clients who have.

Been through that process to be told like no, you're fine. You're great You have it all together because there's this idea of like, well, you're not struggling you're doing well And so I do think that particular segment And then like you're saying, you know the intersection with that and bipoc women, especially I think those That's a segment of people who just get totally overlooked [00:10:00] and I don't think they recognize it and I think, I don't think, you know, externally people recognize it as well.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's this way that we see our success in our professional lives as success just overall, right? Like this idea of, you know, I know for myself and I know that this is not unique to me, but I think there is this way that. I really wanted to achieve more and I think a lot of my high achieve achieving was based in the sense of wanting to really try to prove my own worth and value.

And then I also think that there's this part for me where it was really seeing the ways that my parents struggled and seeing the ways that. They were working hard to help propel me into whatever they believed success was and really wanting to take that on and do more and feel like I've achieved something.

Um, and I think what [00:11:00] happens in that is that there's this sense of like, well, you got out of your circumstances, right? Like you're not in poverty. You don't have an abusive relationship, you know, you're not, you don't have substance issues. Like there's this, this sense of getting out of whatever our circumstances are, then creates this.

Sense of making it like we made it. And so we shouldn't really complain about it. You should be happy. That should be happy enough. Right. And, and I think that, you know, and I think specifically thinking about work trauma, I think that there's this way that, uh, women, BIPOC women in, in high level positions also have this.

kind of unspoken rule around not complaining about things and not, uh, causing too much trouble. I think that, that, you know, having to really live in this dichotomy around who they are outside of work and then who they have to be within work, [00:12:00] uh, which I think creates a lot of tension internal tension for women in those positions.

So I think that that's absolutely, I think this idea that if you're successful and if you've made it and if you, you know, have in some ways overcome your circumstances that you, you're good. So you shouldn't have to, you shouldn't worry about those things and all of the things, you know, I talked to, Both clients and people that, you know, I have talked to on the podcast that all of our adaptations, all of the ways that we cope are helpful in some way, right?

Because we wouldn't use them if they weren't helpful. And, but they always have a point when they, they're not useful. And, and we always understand that limitation in our personal lives. in our interpersonal relationships. Um, we see how overworking, being self reliant, overachieving, overfunctioning is not helpful in [00:13:00] intimacy, connection, self care.

Um, and so my hope is that those conversations really help people see that and not just, you know, see people and make assumptions about their okay ness or their. Uh, you know, the, that they, they don't, they shouldn't have the space to talk about their own personal experiences, right? Like you're saying.

Don't let that be a deterrent to not be checking in on the people that you love just because there's that assumption that They've quote unquote made it or they're doing just fine. So i'm wondering Yeah, it makes sense why the side effects of those coping mechanisms are showing up in personal life But I think it's in their professional life often.

Those are the things that get rewarded, right? like so Do you find that it's usually? You Because of the personal stuff that leads people to this point, or [00:14:00] are you seeing things that like those coping mechanisms eventually start even hurting them at work or impacting them at work? Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's a little bit, um, Both.

I think that, um, one thing that I started to recognize myself as well. I'd like to think of myself as very self aware. Um, you know, I've been in therapy pretty much the majority of my adult life. And not that therapy is a marker of mental wellness necessarily, but exactly, but doing the work is what I really try to be intentional about doing the work and being insightful about my own experience.

And what I saw, I think specifically in 2020 into 2021 was a lot of BIPOC women who are very successful. being physically ill, like having to be hospitalized, um, like getting to points of exhaustion and burnout. [00:15:00] And I think, and for myself, I reached a similar point where it was like, I can't, this isn't sustainable, you know, even though I knew that cognitively, I was not living it.

And I did not have insight about how hard I was pushing myself and the impacts of that. So I think that that was kind of a, also a, uh, Wake up call for me around. There are lots of people who have are successful, have insight and can still wind up very, you know, both physically and emotionally ill.

Absolutely. And I and I think sometimes well, as I think about all My fellow, fellow helpers and therapists, right? Like there's also this expectation that we're supposed to know better because we do help people with it and we do know and understand, but like you're saying, there's that difference between intellectually getting something and then really internalizing it.

And seeing that impact and I agree with you most of the [00:16:00] time when I see people hit that point of burnout, exhaustion, it's either because their personal life blew up or something physical happens. And I think it's like as long as we, our body cooperates, we continue to push ourselves and our body is like, you know, they like that book.

Uh, the body keeps score, which is all about trauma, right? Like our body holds all that for us and it cooperates for so long, but then there reaches a point and I, and you know, to your point, I think a lot of people in this last year and a half, it's like, it became a breaking point for them, which just was an added layer to this whole struggle.

Absolutely. Well, 100%. And I think it's really difficult. I think that for myself and, you know, I think, I think probably for a lot of BIPOC women who are, uh, actively engaged, not only in their professional work, but in their communities. I think that it's really difficult not to continue to be driven by this idea that we need to be.

Do more in [00:17:00] order to make our communities better. And I think that becomes a very tenuous intersection for us that we kind of, we have to keep doing all the things. And we also have to continue to, like, work for our communities. And, you know, I think a lot of what I, um, think about and talk about on the podcast is this differentiation between transcription.

White women. Um, so, you know, women, uh, dominant culture, women in dominant culture here in the in this country, and then also how BIPOC women have a very different experience, right? Like, I think that this way that I tell this story when I first got my master's degree. I remember thinking, oh man, when I get my master's degree, I'm really going to be like people in my community, where I grew up are going to see me differently.

Right. How do I re engage with my community in a way that people [00:18:00] don't see me? As other or better than or, you know, that I can still kind of go back and still be me. And I remember also thinking like through getting my PhD and really thinking about those things like What does this mean for me in terms of how I relate to my family?

What does it mean for me in terms of how I relate to my community? What will people think of me? How will I be perceived? How can I still have contact with my community in the same way? And I think these are things and struggles that, you know, majority culture women don't typically have. Right there.

There are. There are these like questions around our identity and who we are and what that means. in a broader context. And again, these are all generalizations, right? I don't mean to say like, this is true for everyone, but I think that what's helpful is to, you know, and probably cause we're both therapists.

So we think that talking about shit is really [00:19:00] helpful, but I always think that. Being able to create the, the, the beauty of therapy is not just like technique and skill and you know what a therapist brings, it's about creating space for another person's humanity and being able to meet them in that place.

And I think that that's true. That's, that's kind of the, the, the struggle that I think is that BIPOC women are typically very dehumanized. And can be objectified. And so it's really important for me to be able to think about how do we create a space where we can externalize our experiences and bring more humanity to it.

Absolutely. I mean, I think it's so important and Yeah, I agree with you. That's, you know, like you're saying, there might be exceptions, but for the most part, like, those aren't considerations or thoughts that, you know, I like myself went through, right? Like, I thought, oh, I'll be looked up to, but not, not like in a [00:20:00] better way.

I didn't even think of it. It was more like, this is a positive. It was just inherently a positive, like you did this thing. And like you were saying, the part about, Even supporting your community and kind of being that representative one for your community. There's so much pressure because when I think about, you know, as we do therapy with people and they're in burnout and overwhelm and we talk about really needing, you know, good self care is often saying no and setting boundaries and taking care of yourself.

And, you know, unfortunately, when you've gotten to the point where it's already shown up physically, it's, you often have to take a little more. Dramatic steps to, to kind of get back to that place of health. But as you talked about that, I was like, Oh yeah. When I think about these amazing women that I know that are part of the BIPOC community, they're always still doing all of this stuff around.

Like supporting their community and sometimes i'm thinking like how do you have time for all of this stuff? Like i'm just so amazed because I feel exhausted [00:21:00] by just the thought of it but I never even thought about the idea that there's this expectation and The burden that that might feel of like you can't let people down That might mean you're saying like I don't have time for you Like you're turning your back like all of these internal thoughts might be happening, right?

um, but I think it's a really important thing to look at because Do we allow BIPOC women to have that space for healing? Or do we just judge them on, Oh, you didn't show up. You didn't do this. You, you dropped this ball when we wouldn't have those expectations. Like you're saying of dominant culture. Right.

Absolutely. You know, I think that there's this way of, and, you know, I talk about this sometimes with friends of mine, like, how do we give ourselves permission not to have to be the voice at the table all the time. And, you know, I think that is really difficult. I find that tension in myself a lot [00:22:00] where, um, I want to have a voice and I want to make sure that I'm representing my community, who I am in the best way possible.

And there are times when it's like, I just don't have the capacity or bandwidth or energy or any of it to do that. And giving ourselves permission to say, that's okay. Um, and that's not easy. You know, I wrestle, I still wrestle with that and I still have to really be very intentional about how I use my energy and time, but it's not easy.

Um, and I think that is always the challenge in terms of how we are able to create, do work and continue to cultivate work that's more sustainable. And You know, as a therapist, I often think of us as advocates as well, just inherently, especially with the work that you're [00:23:00] doing. I imagine that's even harder because it's almost like your job to be the advocate.

So then how do you not always feel the pressure to like, step in or say something or be the one. So I guess when you're in that place, And you you have that feeling of like, you know, I am hitting the wall or it's just Right now. I just don't have it in me how what is the process that you go through or you know if you're able to share any of that to to help people like get to that place, how do you How do you get from that place of feeling that pressure to show up and do it and make that really hard choice to say, I have to take care of myself for sustainability, right?

Ooh, I wish I had a, a really good way to operationalize all of that. I think that I know I'm like, that's a really tough question. No, I think that for myself, I think that this is a really important piece because I think that this is what I believe. I believe that this is a key and in [00:24:00] terms of. What I hope to see in the work that I do is I think that it's really for me creating more space for my own emotional experience to be able to say, like, If I feel this, it is okay to feel it.

And that helps me make a choice. You know, if I'm exhausted, I can listen to that rather than deny it. If I'm Scared or overwhelmed, or I'm feeling like I don't have the inner resources to do something, I can give myself permission to have that experience. And I think that that's really, really, really important, especially for BIPOC women.

I think the more that we tune in. And give space for emotional experiences and accept them and use them as a tool to inform how we take care of ourselves and how we set boundaries and how we make choices about the work that we want to do. I think that can be [00:25:00] transformational. Yeah, I think it's one of those things that may sound deceptively simple, but like you're saying is really important.

Has a profound effect because to give space to feelings without judgment is really hard, right? Yeah, especially in a culture that doesn't give space for our feelings. I mean, you think about what happened recently with Simone Biles. Right. And I know we talked a little bit about this in our group, but it's this idea of like, if someone is at that level and makes a decision based on how they're feeling in any given moment, right.

Like I am, you know, and, and I feel like her having to like, continually like address, like why she made that choice. Right. It was like very telling about people's inability to just be I don't feel good. And so I don't want to do this. And the way that people responded to that, I think was so telling in that her having to like stand strong and say, [00:26:00] I'm going to make this choice for myself, in spite of what anyone else says, came with a lot of threat.

And I think that that I think that if we look at that on a micro level, I think that that's not an uncommon experience. Right, this feeling of if I present my boundary or my decision to say no or yes to something based on how I feel is not something that people want to accept specifically for people of color, right?

And like you're saying, it's. It's almost like this exaggerated thing because it's it feels extreme because it's like this is a bit, you know, it's the olympics It's a big deal. This is the and And that layer of oh you you dropped the team part, right? Like so you let your team down somehow and yeah, and I do think that all of Because it felt like there was a huge split of people.

I guess maybe I have, uh, maybe I'm surrounded in my network by, probably because I'm surrounded by a lot of [00:27:00] therapists, but a lot of understanding supportive people. But I heard some of the stuff and you're like, Well, of course, then we're never going to feel personally that you could do that. Right? Like there's this idea of like, feelings aren't real, like just because you feel something, it's not real.

And I don't know how many, how many times in therapy we are talking about that. Like that's still real. Like it's, that's about taking care of yourself. And this is why it's so hard because if we don't see it, we don't acknowledge it. And it's almost like, well, that's like a childlike thing to do when in fact, it's a very adult thing to say.

I'm at my limit. I'm aware of my limits, right? And there are so many examples throughout history where we've seen especially women's voices not given credit to that just kind of ignored or you're being crazy or hysterical or Oh totally absolutely, you know, you're being selfish, you know, that's that's inherently not a feminine quality and and I I mean It was such a great example and so [00:28:00] tragic I mean, I think it's horrible that she had to go through that and even had to listen to those people and like you said continually justify herself at the same time like what a great example for people to To understand that that doesn't mean she's any less amazing at what she does or has any less value as a human being But man, that took some guts.

It really did because that's, that must have been like the hardest decision. Oh gosh. Yeah. I mean, I think about like little decisions. I was just like upset this morning because I, I had set a boundary, you know, within my business and I was like, uh, I feel so much guilt, you know, like maybe I should do it.

I don't know. You know? And I'm like. Gosh, you know, and I, I, of course I rely on my support system and they're very affirming. Like, you know, you're doing this for you. It's okay to do it for you. It's okay to do it for you. Right. And that's like a tiny decision that I made in order to protect my own wellbeing.

And I knew why I [00:29:00] was doing it and I felt super conflicted about it. And I think that those little decisions are, have a huge impact. And so, you know, I think that you're right. Like that, that in itself takes courage to be able to make such a public Decision for yourself. And I think that that's really, really what I want at the end of the day at my message to be is that there are ways that our success is based in our achievement externally facing like people are going to see people based on what they have achieved in their professional lives.

But I think that I want it. To be able for BIPOC women to be able to really be able to own and understand their own emotional lives and the impact of all of their lived life experiences and how that informs who they are today. This is why I was so excited to have you on because I think it's so. It's so important.

I mean, just like we're [00:30:00] saying, just in general, therapist, wellness, health, mental health stuff, right? But again, when you add on the layers of extra things that people in the BIPOC community have to deal with inherently, like how much harder it is, like you're saying, to make those small decisions. And that's usually what it is.

It's not always so Public facing. It's not so extreme. You know, it's the, the stakes aren't always as high, but it feels really hard to do that and, and there, and there can be backlash and, you know, and it does happen, it's going to happen, you know, that people don't agree with us or they think we've let them down or, or that we no longer care, you know, people have their stories about that.

And so I think it's really powerful work that you're doing. And, you know, I'm, I'm so excited. I cannot wait to see you on. Like the big Ted talk stage or something. I know it's coming. I know it's coming. I appreciate you holding that space for me. Cause I'm like, what am I doing? I don't, I don't know what I'm doing right now.

Do any [00:31:00] of us, I mean, I think we know what we're doing for a moment and then like maybe an hour later, we're like, Oh my God, this is crazy. No, no, no. I really, I really could have written this therapy wave a lot, a little bit longer, especially right now. I didn't, I didn't have to make a big pivot into different.

Field or a different way of working? Well, without sounding too blue, obviously you were called to do that. You were called forward to do that. So where can, I mean, cause I'm going to assume people are going to want to hear more from you and, and be able to check out your podcast. So where, where can people find you get more information about the work you do for businesses and your podcast names?

Yeah. So, My podcast is the resilience and resistance podcast, and you can find that in most platforms. And we also have an Instagram page, which has a lot of information about what's coming up in the, in the podcast journey. And then, um, the capsule podcast will be released at the end of the month. And again, it's work [00:32:00] trauma is real.

Um, yeah. And so I'm super excited about that. I think we'll probably drop the first episode on. The 26th of this month and people can go to my website, Marisol or locker. com has a lot more about my therapy practice, but, um, if you just want to get in touch with me, you can email me directly. Awesome. Well, thank you, Marisol.

I, I really appreciate you coming on and thanks for having me. It's always fun to chat. Yeah, absolutely. I, I have a feeling like you might need to come back. I'm sure there's so many things for us to talk about and frankly, you have such a great bio. I really wanted to get into some of the stuff we shared in common.

Oh my gosh. Talking our way into concerts. I, it's kind of ridiculous. And like, it's hilarious when I was filling out the form, like things to, I was totally being, trying to be comical about like things to talk about related, like, What are interesting things about you? I always try to put [00:33:00] like the craziest things.

I know. I love that though. I was like, Oh yes, I have some stories too. So we'll definitely have you back. But thank you again. All right. Thanks Amber.

Business owners are increasingly being pulled in so many directions, feeling like they aren't reaching their full potential in business and life. Despite their type A ways with my background as a therapist, entrepreneur, and as a. com dropout with ADHD, I interview and coach high achieving business owners like you who want to stop struggling for success by using psychological systems, strategies, and the occasional care frontation.

This is the easily distracted entrepreneur, your place to slay overwhelm perfectionism and shiny object syndrome so that you can get done what matters most to you. Hey there, [00:34:00] everyone. Today I have a super awesome guest with me. I have Marisol Solarte. Her lacquer, who is a therapist and wellness consultant, and she has a big mission that she's on.

And I can't wait for her to share all the details, but welcome Marisol. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I'm super excited to be here. Awesome. I know we met in a program, a thought leadership program that Carol Cox is putting on. And as you talked about the work that you're doing and you have a podcast that you have two podcasts, actually, you have one that you always do.

Right. And then you have a second one that you're doing as like this passion project. And I thought, Oh my gosh, I have to have you on because I think it's really important and powerful work. So thank you. Why don't you tell everybody just a little bit more about you and, um, and then we'll jump into your big project.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited [00:35:00] that we met in the Thought Leadership Academy. It's been super fun and, um, just getting to know you and getting to know all the other women and trying to figure out what, what this whole thing on thought leadership is. Sometimes, sometimes sounds like bullshit to me. I'm sorry.

Even though I'm totally 100 percent down. Well, I actually reluctantly almost didn't even say the thing. Cause sometimes it feels like, Ooh, like who am I? I know. I'm like, that means that it's like air. Right. But, um, so I am a, um, trauma expert, uh, and, uh, trauma therapist here in Denver, Colorado. And I'm making this big pivot.

In the work that I do and really focusing on thought leadership, really focusing on speaking and, um, doing a lot more training and workshops for all different types of organizations, companies, uh, anyone who wants to hear what I have to say, I guess. And I have a podcast called the resilience and resistance podcast, and it's a podcast focused on [00:36:00] successful BIPOC women who are overcoming trauma and becoming resilient.

And that was really a, really was a passion project that was born out of my own experience and, um, just the experience of other women around me. And in, uh, my process of really trying to understand more of my message, I've come to this place of really wanting to talk about how successful BIPOC women experience work trauma.

Uh, and that in order for BIPOC women to be successful, um, that trauma is a part of that process. So that is what I'm focusing on right now. Um, I have a capsule podcast project. This will be releasing at the end of the month called, uh, work trauma is real. And, uh, I'm super excited about that. I, uh, I'm still really, I think I get fired up about the message and then, um, have just kind of been immersed in trying to think through what that looks like and how that can be helpful in the world.

Right. And I, well, I think [00:37:00] even just the fact that you're even talking about it is such a huge step because, you know, even though on this podcast, my goal is to kind of talk about the emotional side of business, like you're saying, there's this whole other layer that people within the BIPOC community experience that I think for so many people, they're just starting to become aware of that either if they, you know, are part of the BIPOC community or outside of it.

Right. That parent traumas and I think even just that Understanding and kind of leading with that. I think will be really transformational You know, so that's why I absolutely was like this needs to be talked about and I think it's a really important powerful message Yeah, yeah It's been interesting I think in my process of doing the podcast and really I always joke on the podcast and with other people that it's really just a platform for me to talk to my friends That's all I do but um I think what I've come to understand is really just like, you know, I think my intent was to really talk about how our [00:38:00] personal experiences, our developmental experiences really inform who we are as people presently, both personally and professionally, and how a lot of the ways that we adapt in our childhoods and adapt because of systemic racism and all the things that we have to deal with, that all of those things become strong tools In our toolbox in terms of moving ourselves forward, but there's also another side to it.

There's also a way that those things can become barriers to our success, or they can, there's, there's things that we don't really get to look at and reflect on. Right. And with so many, you know, With anybody who's experienced trauma, which a lot, most, I feel like it's so hard. I feel like it's hard press to find people who haven't experienced it in their childhood or at some point or in their, in their lifetime.

But for so many people, you develop those coping mechanisms when you're younger and you figure out ways to kind of exist and, you know, be in [00:39:00] the world. And then eventually they're, There comes this point in which they, those coping mechanisms can either be holding you back or keeping you from being like your true self because it is this trauma, you know, coping thing that's happening for people.

So can you say more about how you're seeing that show up for people in particular? I think there are lots of ways that it shows up specifically for BIPOC women. I think that, uh, this idea of overfunctioning. Or, um, overachieving in childhood, uh, can be something that is becomes very functional as a way to get out of our circumstances and becomes very functional and being successful, right?

Professionally. But what happens is that becomes That's the center focus of how we start to understand and value ourselves. And I think that I [00:40:00] see a lot of, um, that over functioning, over achieving, being very self reliant. Um, you know, being very focused on, I can take care of the things that I need to take care of.

Um, and I don't need to extend outside of myself for help or for support. And I also think that there's a way that, uh, over responsibility, uh, toward others is really significant. I think for BIPOC women specifically, I, you know, I recently had a conversation. And, you know, the, the capsule podcast with a friend of mine, who's a CEO.

And we talked about this idea of responsibility, not only to ourselves and to the work that we're doing, but responsibility to our families, responsibility to our community. And I think specifically, I think because you, for a lot of successful BIPOC women, there is a sense of, or the reality that we are, we are The only in certain [00:41:00] very specific situations, right?

And so there's a way that that responsibility really takes on a life of its own in terms of how we speak for our community, who we are, how we achieve, how that's That perception is played out in our, you know, outside of ourselves and then what that means to other women who don't have examples. Um, and so I think there are lots of ways that plays out and I think it's really important to have these conversations because I really think that part of what my hope is is by opening up the dialogue that we can make our work and our contributions to whatever we're doing, um, more sustainable.

Right. And I think, you know, when I think about that over self reliance, you know, that, that extreme independence is often a trauma response. Right. Right. And the thing is that people who are high [00:42:00] achieving, and like you said, successful goal driven kind of, you know, the weight of the world on their shoulders, they're seen as like, Oh, they got it all together.

They take care of everything. And there's, there's this. Even more of a pressure to be perfect And so it's even to understand that internal pressure, but there's that external pressure of being held to a different standard than anybody else and I think those are the people who Often get kind of overlooked Like i've even seen that when I have a group practice and i've been supervising therapists for eight years and I can remember, especially, you know, with newer therapists working with them and they're like, Oh yeah, they're good there.

I saw them for like three sessions and they're fine. And I'm like, wait a minute, what's going on here. And as we talked about it, it's like, because they show up, they're successful. They look like they have it all together. And so it's like, Oh no, you're good. And I can't tell you how many times I've even had clients who have.

Been through that [00:43:00] process to be told like no, you're fine. You're great You have it all together because there's this idea of like, well, you're not struggling you're doing well And so I do think that particular segment And then like you're saying, you know the intersection with that and bipoc women, especially I think those That's a segment of people who just get totally overlooked and I don't think they recognize it and I think, I don't think, you know, externally people recognize it as well.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's this way that we see our success in our professional lives as success just overall, right? Like this idea of, you know, I know for myself and I know that this is not unique to me, but I think there is this way that. I really wanted to achieve more and I think a lot of my high achieve achieving was based in the sense of wanting to really try to prove my own worth and value.

And then I also think that there's this part for me where it was really seeing [00:44:00] the ways that my parents struggled and seeing the ways that. They were working hard to help propel me into whatever they believed success was and really wanting to take that on and do more and feel like I've achieved something.

Um, and I think what happens in that is that there's this sense of like, well, you got out of your circumstances, right? Like you're not in poverty. You don't have an abusive relationship, you know, you're not, you don't have substance issues. Like there's this, this sense of getting out of whatever our circumstances are, then creates this.

Sense of making it like we made it. And so we shouldn't really complain about it. You should be happy. That should be happy enough. Right. And, and I think that, you know, and I think specifically thinking about work trauma, I think that there's this way that, [00:45:00] uh, women, BIPOC women in, in high level positions also have this.

kind of unspoken rule around not complaining about things and not, uh, causing too much trouble. I think that, that, you know, having to really live in this dichotomy around who they are outside of work and then who they have to be within work, uh, which I think creates a lot of tension internal tension for women in those positions.

So I think that that's absolutely, I think this idea that if you're successful and if you've made it and if you, you know, have in some ways overcome your circumstances that you, you're good. So you shouldn't have to, you shouldn't worry about those things and all of the things, you know, I talked to, Both clients and people that, you know, I have talked to on the podcast that all of our adaptations, all of the ways that we cope are helpful in some way, right?

Because we wouldn't use them if they weren't helpful. [00:46:00] And, but they always have a point when they, they're not useful. And, and we always understand that limitation in our personal lives. in our interpersonal relationships. Um, we see how overworking, being self reliant, overachieving, overfunctioning is not helpful in intimacy, connection, self care.

Um, and so my hope is that those conversations really help people see that and not just, you know, see people and make assumptions about their okay ness or their. Uh, you know, the, that they, they don't, they shouldn't have the space to talk about their own personal experiences, right? Like you're saying.

Don't let that be a deterrent to not be checking in on the people that you love just because there's that assumption that They've quote unquote made it or they're doing just fine. So i'm [00:47:00] wondering Yeah, it makes sense why the side effects of those coping mechanisms are showing up in personal life But I think it's in their professional life often.

Those are the things that get rewarded, right? like so Do you find that it's usually? You Because of the personal stuff that leads people to this point, or are you seeing things that like those coping mechanisms eventually start even hurting them at work or impacting them at work? Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's a little bit, um, Both.

I think that, um, one thing that I started to recognize myself as well. I'd like to think of myself as very self aware. Um, you know, I've been in therapy pretty much the majority of my adult life. And not that therapy is a marker of mental wellness necessarily, but exactly, but doing the work is what I [00:48:00] really try to be intentional about doing the work and being insightful about my own experience.

And what I saw, I think specifically in 2020 into 2021 was a lot of BIPOC women who are very successful. being physically ill, like having to be hospitalized, um, like getting to points of exhaustion and burnout. And I think, and for myself, I reached a similar point where it was like, I can't, this isn't sustainable, you know, even though I knew that cognitively, I was not living it.

And I did not have insight about how hard I was pushing myself and the impacts of that. So I think that that was kind of a, also a, uh, Wake up call for me around. There are lots of people who have are successful, have insight and can still wind up very, you know, both physically and emotionally ill.

Absolutely. And I and I think sometimes well, as I think about [00:49:00] all My fellow, fellow helpers and therapists, right? Like there's also this expectation that we're supposed to know better because we do help people with it and we do know and understand, but like you're saying, there's that difference between intellectually getting something and then really internalizing it.

And seeing that impact and I agree with you most of the time when I see people hit that point of burnout, exhaustion, it's either because their personal life blew up or something physical happens. And I think it's like as long as we, our body cooperates, we continue to push ourselves and our body is like, you know, they like that book.

Uh, the body keeps score, which is all about trauma, right? Like our body holds all that for us and it cooperates for so long, but then there reaches a point and I, and you know, to your point, I think a lot of people in this last year and a half, it's like, it became a breaking point for them, which just was an added layer to this whole struggle.

Absolutely. Well, [00:50:00] 100%. And I think it's really difficult. I think that for myself and, you know, I think, I think probably for a lot of BIPOC women who are, uh, actively engaged, not only in their professional work, but in their communities. I think that it's really difficult not to continue to be driven by this idea that we need to be.

Do more in order to make our communities better. And I think that becomes a very tenuous intersection for us that we kind of, we have to keep doing all the things. And we also have to continue to, like, work for our communities. And, you know, I think a lot of what I, um, think about and talk about on the podcast is this differentiation between transcription.

White women. Um, so, you know, women, uh, dominant culture, women in dominant culture here in the in this country, and then also how BIPOC women have a very different experience, right? Like, I [00:51:00] think that this way that I tell this story when I first got my master's degree. I remember thinking, oh man, when I get my master's degree, I'm really going to be like people in my community, where I grew up are going to see me differently.

Right. How do I re engage with my community in a way that people don't see me? As other or better than or, you know, that I can still kind of go back and still be me. And I remember also thinking like through getting my PhD and really thinking about those things like Okay. What does this mean for me in terms of how I relate to my family?

What does it mean for me in terms of how I relate to my community? What will people think of me? How will I be perceived? How can I still have contact with my community in the same way? And I think these are things and struggles that, you know, majority culture women don't typically have. Right [00:52:00] there.

There are. There are these like questions around our identity and who we are and what that means. in a broader context. And again, these are all generalizations, right? I don't mean to say like, this is true for everyone, but I think that what's helpful is to, you know, and probably cause we're both therapists.

So we think that talking about shit is really helpful, but I always think that. Being able to create the, the, the beauty of therapy is not just like technique and skill and you know what a therapist brings, it's about creating space for another person's humanity and being able to meet them in that place.

And I think that that's true. That's, that's kind of the, the, the struggle that I think is that BIPOC women are typically very dehumanized. And can be objectified. And so it's really important for me to be able to think about how do we create a space where we can externalize our experiences and bring more humanity [00:53:00] to it.

Absolutely. I mean, I think it's so important and Yeah, I agree with you. That's, you know, like you're saying, there might be exceptions, but for the most part, like, those aren't considerations or thoughts that, you know, I like myself went through, right? Like, I thought, oh, I'll be looked up to, but not, not like in a better way.

I didn't even think of it. It was more like, this is a positive. It was just inherently a positive, like you did this thing. And like you were saying, the part about, Even supporting your community and kind of being that representative one for your community. There's so much pressure because when I think about, you know, as we do therapy with people and they're in burnout and overwhelm and we talk about really needing, you know, good self care is often saying no and setting boundaries and taking care of yourself.

And, you know, unfortunately, when you've gotten to the point where it's already shown up physically, it's, you often have to take a little more. Dramatic steps to, to kind of get back [00:54:00] to that place of health. But as you talked about that, I was like, Oh yeah. When I think about these amazing women that I know that are part of the BIPOC community, they're always still doing all of this stuff around.

Like supporting their community and sometimes i'm thinking like how do you have time for all of this stuff? Like i'm just so amazed because I feel exhausted by just the thought of it but I never even thought about the idea that there's this expectation and The burden that that might feel of like you can't let people down That might mean you're saying like I don't have time for you Like you're turning your back like all of these internal thoughts might be happening, right?

um, but I think it's a really important thing to look at because Do we allow BIPOC women to have that space for healing? Or do we just judge them on, Oh, you didn't show up. You didn't do this. You, you dropped this ball when we wouldn't have those expectations. Like you're saying of dominant culture. Right.

Absolutely. [00:55:00] You know, I think that there's this way of, and, you know, I talk about this sometimes with friends of mine, like, how do we give ourselves permission not to have to be the voice at the table all the time. And, you know, I think that is really difficult. I find that tension in myself a lot where, um, I want to have a voice and I want to make sure that I'm representing my community, who I am in the best way possible.

And there are times when it's like, I just don't have the capacity or bandwidth or energy or any of it to do that. And giving ourselves permission to say, that's okay. Um, and that's not easy. You know, I wrestle, I still wrestle with that and I still have to really be very intentional about how I use my energy and time, but it's not easy.

Um, and [00:56:00] I think that is always the challenge in terms of how we are able to create, do work and continue to cultivate work that's more sustainable. And You know, as a therapist, I often think of us as advocates as well, just inherently, especially with the work that you're doing. I imagine that's even harder because it's almost like your job to be the advocate.

So then how do you not always feel the pressure to like, step in or say something or be the one. So I guess when you're in that place, And you you have that feeling of like, you know, I am hitting the wall or it's just Right now. I just don't have it in me how what is the process that you go through or you know if you're able to share any of that to to help people like get to that place, how do you How do you get from that place of feeling that pressure to show up and do it and make that really hard choice to say, I have to take [00:57:00] care of myself for sustainability, right?

Ooh, I wish I had a, a really good way to operationalize all of that. I think that I know I'm like, that's a really tough question. No, I think that for myself, I think that this is a really important piece because I think that this is what I believe. I believe that this is a key and in terms of. What I hope to see in the work that I do is I think that it's really for me creating more space for my own emotional experience to be able to say, like, If I feel this, it is okay to feel it.

And that helps me make a choice. You know, if I'm exhausted, I can listen to that rather than deny it. If I'm Scared or overwhelmed, or I'm feeling like I don't have the inner resources to do something, I can give myself permission to have that experience. And I think that that's [00:58:00] really, really, really important, especially for BIPOC women.

I think the more that we tune in. And give space for emotional experiences and accept them and use them as a tool to inform how we take care of ourselves and how we set boundaries and how we make choices about the work that we want to do. I think that can be transformational. Yeah, I think it's one of those things that may sound deceptively simple, but like you're saying is really important.

Has a profound effect because to give space to feelings without judgment is really hard, right? Yeah, especially in a culture that doesn't give space for our feelings. I mean, you think about what happened recently with Simone Biles. Right. And I know we talked a little bit about this in our group, but it's this idea of like, if someone is at that level and makes a decision based on how they're feeling in any given moment, right.

Like I am, you know, and, and I feel like [00:59:00] her having to like, continually like address, like why she made that choice. Right. It was like very telling about people's inability to just be I don't feel good. And so I don't want to do this. And the way that people responded to that, I think was so telling in that her having to like stand strong and say, I'm going to make this choice for myself, in spite of what anyone else says, came with a lot of threat.

And I think that that I think that if we look at that on a micro level, I think that that's not an uncommon experience. Right, this feeling of if I present my boundary or my decision to say no or yes to something based on how I feel is not something that people want to accept specifically for people of color, right?

And like you're saying, it's. It's almost like this exaggerated thing because it's it feels extreme because it's like this is a bit, you know, it's the olympics It's a big deal. This is the [01:00:00] and And that layer of oh you you dropped the team part, right? Like so you let your team down somehow and yeah, and I do think that all of Because it felt like there was a huge split of people.

I guess maybe I have, uh, maybe I'm surrounded in my network by, probably because I'm surrounded by a lot of therapists, but a lot of understanding supportive people. But I heard some of the stuff and you're like, Well, of course, then we're never going to feel personally that you could do that. Right? Like there's this idea of like, feelings aren't real, like just because you feel something, it's not real.

And I don't know how many, how many times in therapy we are talking about that. Like that's still real. Like it's, that's about taking care of yourself. And this is why it's so hard because if we don't see it, we don't acknowledge it. And it's almost like, well, that's like a childlike thing to do when in fact, it's a very adult thing to say.

I'm at my limit. I'm aware of my limits, right? And there are so many examples throughout [01:01:00] history where we've seen especially women's voices not given credit to that just kind of ignored or you're being crazy or hysterical or Oh totally absolutely, you know, you're being selfish, you know, that's that's inherently not a feminine quality and and I I mean It was such a great example and so tragic I mean, I think it's horrible that she had to go through that and even had to listen to those people and like you said continually justify herself at the same time like what a great example for people to To understand that that doesn't mean she's any less amazing at what she does or has any less value as a human being But man, that took some guts.

It really did because that's, that must have been like the hardest decision. Oh gosh. Yeah. I mean, I think about like little decisions. I was just like upset this morning because I, I had set a boundary, you know, within my business and I was like, uh, I [01:02:00] feel so much guilt, you know, like maybe I should do it.

I don't know. You know? And I'm like. Gosh, you know, and I, I, of course I rely on my support system and they're very affirming. Like, you know, you're doing this for you. It's okay to do it for you. It's okay to do it for you. Right. And that's like a tiny decision that I made in order to protect my own wellbeing.

And I knew why I was doing it and I felt super conflicted about it. And I think that those little decisions are, have a huge impact. And so, you know, I think that you're right. Like that, that in itself takes courage to be able to make such a public Decision for yourself. And I think that that's really, really what I want at the end of the day at my message to be is that there are ways that our success is based in our achievement externally facing like people are going to see people based on what they have achieved in their professional lives.

But I think that I want it. To be able for [01:03:00] BIPOC women to be able to really be able to own and understand their own emotional lives and the impact of all of their lived life experiences and how that informs who they are today. This is why I was so excited to have you on because I think it's so. It's so important.

I mean, just like we're saying, just in general, therapist, wellness, health, mental health stuff, right? But again, when you add on the layers of extra things that people in the BIPOC community have to deal with inherently, like how much harder it is, like you're saying, to make those small decisions. And that's usually what it is.

It's not always so Public facing. It's not so extreme. You know, it's the, the stakes aren't always as high, but it feels really hard to do that and, and there, and there can be backlash and, you know, and it does happen, it's going to happen, you know, that people don't agree with us or they think we've let them down or, or [01:04:00] that we no longer care, you know, people have their stories about that.

And so I think it's really powerful work that you're doing. And, you know, I'm, I'm so excited. I cannot wait to see you on. Like the big Ted talk stage or something. I know it's coming. I know it's coming. I appreciate you holding that space for me. Cause I'm like, what am I doing? I don't, I don't know what I'm doing right now.

Do any of us, I mean, I think we know what we're doing for a moment and then like maybe an hour later, we're like, Oh my God, this is crazy. No, no, no. I really, I really could have written this therapy wave a lot, a little bit longer, especially right now. I didn't, I didn't have to make a big pivot into different.

Field or a different way of working? Well, without sounding too blue, obviously you were called to do that. You were called forward to do that. So where can, I mean, cause I'm going to assume people are going to want to hear more from you and, and be able to check out your podcast. So where, where can people find you get more information about the work you do for [01:05:00] businesses and your podcast names?

Yeah. So, My podcast is the resilience and resistance podcast, and you can find that in most platforms. And we also have an Instagram page, which has a lot of information about what's coming up in the, in the podcast journey. And then, um, the capsule podcast will be released at the end of the month. And again, it's work trauma is real.

Um, yeah. And so I'm super excited about that. I think we'll probably drop the first episode on. The 26th of this month and people can go to my website, Marisol or locker. com has a lot more about my therapy practice, but, um, if you just want to get in touch with me, you can email me directly. Awesome. Well, thank you, Marisol.

I, I really appreciate you coming on and thanks for having me. It's always fun to chat. Yeah, absolutely. I, I have a feeling like you might need to come back. I'm sure there's so many things for us to talk about and frankly, you have such a great bio. I [01:06:00] really wanted to get into some of the stuff we shared in common.

Oh my gosh. Talking our way into concerts. I, it's kind of ridiculous. And like, it's hilarious when I was filling out the form, like things to, I was totally being, trying to be comical about like things to talk about related, like, What are interesting things about you? I always try to put like the craziest things.

I know. I love that though. I was like, Oh yes, I have some stories too. So we'll definitely have you back. But thank you again. All right. Thanks Amber.