This week on the podcast, imposter syndrome expert Patrick Casale and I are talking about imposter syndrome for neurodivergent folks, being in alignment with authenticity, how to let go of some of the negative messaging we hold onto, and creating movement to remain in creativity.
Patrick is right there with us in the neurodivergent world, so of course when I called him an expert at the start of this episode, I could feel him cringe. This is something we all work on, forever, and it’s about having the right tools in your toolbox to take back your power and get out of your own head.
Whether you think you have imposter syndrome or not, I encourage you to listen in this week. Because we all have stories we tell ourselves and it’s time to let them go.
Patrick Casale is a Licensed Clinical Mental Health and Addictions Therapist. He is the owner of All Things Private Practice. He is a Private Practice Coach and Strategist. He is a Group Practice Owner, Motivational Speaker, and Podcast Host. He has been featured on Private Practice Startup, Abundance Practice Building, Therapy Reimagined, Not Your Typical Psychotherapist, Selling The Couch, and Modern Therapists. Patrick is a passionate advocate, reducing the shame and stigma of mental health, as well as impostor syndrome. Patrick helps mental health entrepreneurs break the mold, work through their fears and insecurities, and to embrace their Authenticity. Connect with Patrick on LinkedIn and follow him on Instagram.
Links & Resources:
Time Stamps:
[1:05] – What happens when you build sustainable systems
[3:35] – About Patrick
[4:33] – Imposter syndrome is something we all go through as entrepreneurs
[5:23] – Perfectionism is a big part of imposter syndrome
[8:23] – Neurodivergents will be hypervigilant about what you’re putting out there
[9:24] – How attachment trauma and messaging we receive as kids factor in
[11:45] – Put it out into the world anyway
[12:48] – When we start out, the people who see our stuff is really connected to us and they’re very supportive
[13:40] – If someone takes time out of their day to tell you negative feedback, it says more about them
[15:40] – We’re out of alignment with being authentic
[18:45] – What’s helpful for some is offensive to others…and who cares
[19:30] – “Why would anyone hire me”
[20:24] – Be a contributor, not a guru
[23:25] – Don’t get propped up by good feedback or pulled down by negative feedback
[24:18] – Give yourself permission to fail
[27:00] – Have fun with your imposter syndrome
[29:25] – There’s a time you need a cocoon and other times you need to get out of the house
30:08 – Don’t resist the flow state; go with it
[31:48] – Two additional considerations
[32:45] – Build the plane as you fly it – you don’t need to have every piece of the puzzle put together before you put it out to the world
[34:12] – With external accountability, there’s enough pressure to finish the thing
Transcription:
Amber Hawley 0:01
Business owners are increasingly being pulled in so many directions, feeling like they aren’t reaching their full potential in business and life despite their type aways. With my background as a therapist, entrepreneur, and as a.com dropout with ADHD, I interview and coach high achieving business owners like you who want to stop struggling for success by using psychological systems, strategies, and the occasional care for entation. This is the easily distracted entrepreneur, your place to slay overwhelm perfectionism and shiny object syndrome so that you can get done what matters most to you.
Amber Hawley 0:41
Hello, Hello, Happy Wednesday and happy June 29. If you happen to be listening to this on the day that the episode is released, then I am solidly in week one of my summer vacation, which I’m pretty excited about. This has to be one of my favorite parts of entrepreneurship is that you, if you build sustainable systems, you can actually have a business doing all that it’s supposed to do even when you’re on vacation. So I am such a fan of batching. I love it. And I’d rather work longer days and work for less days and have more time off. That is just always my goal. If you actually want to learn more about creating sustainable systems and making sure that you’re incorporating lots of vacations and breaks into your life as well, because I mean, what’s the point of having a business if you can’t actually enjoy yourself, then you need to head on over to AmberHawley.com/innercircle and check out the inner circle membership where we have monthly workshops, group coaching, support and weekly co working, which is one of the favorite parts of the membership for people because we get to connect, have accountability. And I swear sometimes it’s like magic, how coworking can help you focus and actually get shit done. And to make it easy for you, you can just go to your podcast player that you’re listening this to listening to this and and click the link for the inner circle.
Amber Hawley 2:19
In today’s episode, I talked to my friend and local clinician Patrick Casale, Patrick is a licensed therapist, and he’s the host of the all things private practice podcast. And like I said he is local to Asheville, so it’s always nice to talk to somebody locally. Even though we still do this interview online. Patrick is passionate about advocating for reducing the shame and stigma of mental health as well as helping people with impostor syndrome. So without further ado, we are going to jump into the episode where we talk about all things neurodiversity, and impostor syndrome. Hello, Patrick, thanks for coming on the podcast.
Patrick Casale 3:05
Hey, Amber, thank you for having me on the podcast.
Amber Hawley 3:09
That’s as formal as we’re going to be the whole time now.
Patrick Casale 3:14
That was the main reason I wanted to come on here.
Amber Hawley 3:16
So Patrick, I already obviously introduce you for everybody. But if you could tell people just a little bit more about yourself so they can know all all of the things that aren’t in your official bio.
Patrick Casale 3:34
That’s all even like tried to remember what is in my official bio. But yeah, I’m Patrick Casale. I’m the owner of all things private practice, which is a private practice coaching business for therapists. I am the host of the all things private practice podcast, and I am a group practice owner in Asheville, North Carolina and a mental health and addiction therapist.
Amber Hawley 3:56
Some awesome and Patrick shares with me the being neurodivergent. So he is part of our, my favorite type of people really, really, the type of people that thinks different we like we like people that think differently. And you know, you’ve been going around talking, giving talks, or I’ve seen you in different like conferences and stuff talking about impostor syndrome, and I thought it would be a perfect thing to have you come on and talk about because this is something obviously we all go through as entrepreneurs and it’s kind of one of those things where I think it’s you know, we do our work and we grow and we learn as the years go on in our business, but it’s that old, you know, a new level old devil kind of thing sometimes that it can pop up and rear its head in different ways. So I thought this would be a fantastic conversation to have with somebody who’s you know, an expert at this.
Patrick Casale 4:58
So be Being called an expert in impostor syndrome always creates like an enormous amount of imposter syndrome. It’s like, Fuck, I’m gonna get found out now on this podcast that I don’t know what I’m talking about, you know? And that part of this for sure.
Amber Hawley 5:15
I know. I’m like, so you better have everything perfect. And you better say it. All right.
Patrick Casale 5:22
Yeah. And that perfectionism is such a major, major part of impostor syndrome of like, everything has to be perfect before I put it out to the world. Because the alternative, right is like, people are gonna find me out and judge me and know that I don’t know what I’m talking about, or I don’t know that subject matter. And why the hell would someone hire me? Or, you know, contact me if I don’t know this stuff. And I think perfectionism is so fucking paralyzing. Because you get caught in that feedback loop of like, ooh, that doesn’t sound right, I need to change that piece of copy on my website. Oh, my God, my picture doesn’t look great. Like, we can convince ourselves of every single reason under the sun to not do something because we’re fearful of the outcome.
Amber Hawley 6:09
Oh, my gosh, I know. And that’s, it’s interesting, because sometimes I’m working with people and I’ll say will, like, it sounds like impostor syndrome. And they’re like, no, no, no, I don’t have that. And I think we think of it as one way when we think of the person who says, and, and there are plenty of people who, especially when starting in their business feel this way. They’re like, I don’t know enough. Or there’s these other people who are doing it, who are experts, or I’m new to the game or I, you know, so many people are talking about this, who am I like, there’s that level of impostor syndrome. And then, and that’s, again, really developed, you know, I just spread the word. So anything Oh, my God. And then, and then I think we get to this new level. And or, I mean, a different it shows up differently is how I actually will say it, that there are times where I say to myself, like, I know, I have an expertise, I have a huge knowledge base. You know, when I work with people, I’m, uh, I’m, you know, to kind of reflect back to you like, oh, yeah, I know that. And that was something that was helpful for somebody. And it’s different. Like, I know, I have this expertise and a lot of training experience. And I think it’s that perfectionism part that just crushes me. And I’ve talked about this, I didn’t podcast episode, I think it was earlier last year, about how I didn’t even want to put out the, like, change the name of the podcast and redo it, because it’s like that fear of being criticized, like, that’s another part for me of, you know, when we’re ADHD, like, I can be a little flirty. So I might say something that’s absolutely true. And then you get that douchebag, who comes in and is like, Oh, well, so is this. And it’s like, well, yes, this wasn’t exhaustive. Like I was sharing. I shared one thought, and you act like I’m saying nothing else is true, right. So that’s, that’s that kind of perfectionism stuff that I see coming up with so many people, I think, who are neurodivergent, as well, because we’ve gotten a lot of feedback about, like, You’re wrong, or that you said something flirty or you misspoke, like they’re common for you.
Patrick Casale 8:22
It can definitely feel like there is that like, target on your back, so to speak. And I think when you’re neurodivergent just being really hyper vigilant about how you present in a neurotypical world and second guessing yourself before you’re gonna put something out to the world because you’re like, is it going to be judged and critiqued and like ripped apart? And I think we have so much attachment to what we do as entrepreneurs. And it makes sense. I mean, it’s as entrepreneurs like our business is reflective of us. And there’s so much investment in vulnerability and insecurity that comes up with like launching or creating or like, feedback in general. And even though we should be like, welcoming feedback, it still hurts when you hear things where you’re like, who this wasn’t received well, or who this was, like, someone misunderstood my purpose or my messaging. And I think that is impactful. And, you know, I also did a lot of research around impostor syndrome, because I was speaking at a conference and I kind of tied it into like, attachment trauma, and messaging that we receive throughout like childhood and early development, because I think like, if we’re always told, like, Oh, you got an A at school, you’re so smart. And then you get a D in math, and it’s like, well, what the hell is wrong with you, you’re clearly not good enough at this subject matter. You start to internalize that. And I remember like, being a collegiate athlete and a competitive soccer player all my life and my dad would come to my games and like, if I didn’t score three goals, it was problematic but like, it would be like how come you didn’t score enough? How come you didn’t? do enough today. And I think you can get really wrapped up in like, the association and internalizing, like, my self worth is dependent on what I accomplish and put out to the world. And that is really fucking painful for people. And the disconnect there is like, it’s not about achievement oriented or like workaholism, it’s like, if you really relate and connect my sense of self to worthiness around like, accomplishment. It’s really, it’s heavy stuff. And I know a lot of people, you know, kind of resonate with that mentality.
Amber Hawley 10:34
Absolutely. I mean, I think so many people actually fall into that category. And, you know, it could be that, that those instances where you get like, you’re praised when you do well or not praised, you know, when you’re given feedback, negative feedback when you don’t, or there’s some people who, like they never received praise, they didn’t receive anything either way. And it’s always this, this struggle of constantly trying to prove themselves. And like you said, it comes from a very deep place, because it’s not often it’s not like in the conscious current realm of what’s going on in their life. And I think because it is so deep and so tender, that that’s what makes it so hard. Because on one hand, you’re like, you’re a successful business owner, you’ve accomplished a lot, you’ve done so well. And yet, when you go to put something new out in the world, you’re like, oh, fuck, and it’s almost that, what if I get found out, even though there’s nothing to find out? Somebody’s gonna have a contrary opinion. That’s, that’s what’s gonna happen.
Patrick Casale 11:41
Right? And I think it’s like one of those things that I encourage my coaching clients, like, put it out to the world, regardless of whether or not it’s ready through like imperfect action, because it’s almost like people think the world is gonna stop spinning. If I put this idea out there and like, then you do it, and you’re like, Oh, it’s fine. Like, nothing bad happened. And I still, like have this idea. I remember, when COVID first started, I was doing a lot of like Facebook Lives about impostor syndrome, and how I experienced it. And I didn’t even have a coaching business at the time didn’t have any of this, I just had a private practice. And, you know, nobody was watching them. And I was still like, really nervous. And then like, my grandma would chime in with a comment, like, Oh, these are great, thank you so much for these wonderful videos. And, you know, then I’m like, Why do I feel so? Like, why do I feel this overwhelming insecurity about how this is being received, when in reality, like nobody is paying attention to it?
Amber Hawley 12:41
Well, you know, or there is, we do sometimes receive negative feedback. But I will say when you’re first starting out, you make a great point that often when we first start out, the people who see it are people who are usually in some sort of connection to us. And they tend to be really kind, like, they’re very supportive, right? There’s always those off people. And then occasionally, you know, you’ll get somebody who’s a little more argumentative. And I think that’s the thing that I when I became aware of, like, What’s stopping me and then and then you’re realizing, like, I’m giving this person a lot of power, because often it’s one person we’re thinking about, we’re thinking about this one person. And we’re like, I can see how that person would respond. And like, I already know what they’re gonna say, and you’re like, I don’t even like this person anyway. So why do I care? You know, but I’m giving all of this power away. But that’s the fear is like, they’re gonna have a contrary thing to say. And it’s like, if somebody does that, like, boy, they took time out of their day to tell you how wrong you were about something when it’s, you know, I think, I can’t even remember now if I said this before I hit record, or if I said it during this, but but I always had that thing of people would kind of like, oh, well, I wish I had a perfect I wish I could use a real example. So it doesn’t sound so vague. But I would say something, and they would be like, Oh, well, this, this is what happens to and I’m like, well, it was one sentence. So it wasn’t exhaustive thoughts on everything, you know, everything I knew, I know what sticks in my head. This is I gave a talk. I was a training with a with a, an associate, I want to say probably 14 years ago on domestic violence because I’m a certified domestic violence counselor. And we were training at, like the suicide prevention hotline group, my friend and I, and it was all like volunteers and therapists, and we gave the training and it was a you know, pretty good training, but it was like 45 minutes. And at the end, like someone stood up, she was a licensed therapist, we were associated therapist, and she pointed out something that we didn’t talk about at all and but it was really accusatory and super negative. And like we clearly don’t know what we’re talking about because we didn’t even talk about this and at The time I was mortified, but my thought afterwards is like, I 45 minutes. How in the world can we cover every single thing there is to talk about around domestic violence. And it’s but it’s those kinds of things. Look at that 14 years ago, that like sticking my head, about like, that’s the kind of thing when I go to put something new out that I’m always worried, like, can I be clear enough? Or I think a lot of therapists do this. Can we qualify enough? Can I say, Oh, this isn’t everything, or there’s all their parts that contribute to like, we always qualify what we’re putting out there. And so we don’t get to kind of be in our own thought and boldness sometimes, right?
Patrick Casale 15:41
And that’s when I think we’re like, out of alignment with being authentic when we start to overthink it and qualify everything that we’re putting out to the world instead of being like, Hey, this is my current thought training, right? Like, this doesn’t mean this isn’t everything. It’s not all encompassing. And I the reason I’m like, really resonating with what you’re saying right now, it’s kind of pissing me off is like, I’ve been doing a lot of tick tock videos about therapy stuff neurodivergent stuff, Psychology Today, profiles that are fucking terrible, blah, blah, blah. Nevertheless, these videos are 30 seconds, right? Like, that’s the amount of time you have. They’re not like 20 minute, like rants. And I’m getting people like commenting on them that are like, but you didn’t, you know, you didn’t consider this, you didn’t include this. And I’m like, it is a 32nd video, what else could I do in this conversation? So now I’m like, feeling that insecurity about having that out information out to the world? Because you will get that like that feedback, where it’s like, yeah, of course, we would take this into consideration. But like, in 30 seconds, I’m trying to get my point across and get you enticed enough to like, listen to it. So like, those are the things that stick in your head when you’re trying to put some of that stuff out to the world to especially when you have a following.
Amber Hawley 16:59
Exactly, exactly. And you know, this is the thing, we can have that awareness, like clearly that person is defensive or got triggered in some way. But like you said, I think we when we do that, and we’re like, okay, but it’s a 32nd video, and it’s supposed to be funny, or it’s supposed to give you like one little nugget of something to think about if it doesn’t fit you move on. Right. But that I think that it’s those things that keeps so many people stuck in putting themselves out there in that fully authentic way. Right. Absolutely. And I think that’s the version of impostor syndrome that I see more and more It’s, and again, there’s still that piece of like, who am I, I’ve worked with people who are like, like one, one client who I adore, who works with maternal mental health stuff. And she’s like, but I’m not a licensed therapist. And I’m like, you don’t need to be you’re not presenting yourself as that, right. But you have amazing knowledge and training and experience, and you have something to offer. And so there’s that piece when we always feel like I need to, you know, have another credential or no more, be more. But then there’s the perfectionism stuff that keeps us from, you know, showing up the way we want to the way that people would really connect to, because I’m sure there are more people who connected to those ugly Psychology Today profiles. And because I can remember going through them when I’ve coached like therapists before, and I’m like, Oh, my God, this picture is hideous, just like our other dental client. Just ignore that photo. I know, it makes them look crazy, but they’re awesome people, like they just need to change there. So it’s like that’s the real this right?
Patrick Casale 18:42
It is. And you know, it’s funny because those your Psychology Today videos for your Psychology Today, profile sucks. And here’s how to change it is what those videos were. And they have the most engagement I’ve ever received on any like platform with people who are like, do you mind fix mine, like, help me with mine, you know, but then we always focus on the one person who is like, this is being really offensive. And this isn’t very therapeutic for you to call people out in this way. I’m like, fuck off. First of all, like, it’s actually helping people in a funny way. I’m sorry, that like your stuff isn’t very good. But what you’re describing, you know, in addition to perfectionism is that I have to be the expert mentality of like, I can’t do the thing, unless I am the absolute expert. So what I hear from therapists all the time, who I coach and building their practices is like, why would anyone hire me? If so, and so has more credentials behind their name? Or is EMDR certified or does this thing that I don’t do? So I need to take all the trainings that before I can actually launch my business and it’s like, Absolutely not. launch your business show up as you be personable build relationships and connection which you’re in An expert at doing if you’re a therapist, and that is all you need to do it first and then you build on it. But like, you don’t have to have all of these letters behind your name before you start to put your idea in motion.
Amber Hawley 20:12
Yeah, it’s yeah, the idea that I have to have it all figured out before I can start. And it’s just so unrealistic. Like, you’ll never get to that point. I think my favorite thing I’ve ever heard somebody say that I always go back to when that kind of stuff is coming up for me is Denise Duffield, Thomas talks about this. And she says, she goes, I think of myself as a contributor. So there is she has an expertise, but she’s like, I’m a contributor to this knowledge base. And that takes so much pressure off of it. And it’s so interesting how how, when we shift our words a little bit, it can change it from, I must be the the end all be all of all knowledge to I can have a slice of the expertise and my viewpoint in my opinion as a contributor. But that still, I still have something important to say. So that’s my favorite.
Patrick Casale 21:06
That’s powerful. And it’s a good reframe, too. And you know, it’s like, you hear that with impostor syndrome so often have like, you mentioned it before, Oh, someone else does similar, like things, coaching, podcasts, whatever. And so I can’t do my own. And I will, you know, be very honest that before COVID, I had that experience all the time where I was helping therapists in Nashville, like build and start their businesses, mainly, it was for like lunches and coffees and people will be like, You should do this for a living. You’re so good at it. And Allison per year is a friend of mine. I know. She’s a friend of yours. She was always in my mind and like, but Alison and abundance practice building is in Asheville, why would anyone hire me if this like well established entity and just business exists here? And that kept me stuck for so long. And she and I have talked about this, but like, it kept me stuck in that process of like, why would anyone hire me. And then I had lunch with a mentor one day from grad school. And she was like, because your personalities are different. Like the idea of practice building. And coaching is not unique to you, right? It’s like, plenty of practice building coaches in the world, some are fucking terrible subject for a different day, but like different voices, and like different ways of showing up in different ways of like presenting information and being in the space with the person that you’re supporting. So you’re going to attract and repel based on how you show up and how you put information out there. But you have to allow yourself to fight through the perfectionistic, like insecurity, stuff that comes up so that you can show up authentically as you
Amber Hawley 22:48
absolutely. And, you know, that goes for any. I mean, this goes for all industries, right? Like, there’s, I’m sure you know, somebody and I have that person, too. I think we all have that person in our head where I’m like, Oh, well, they do this, and they do it so well. And we have a lot of similarities. And yet, we’re still different. And even if even if we have a lot of even personality similarities, even our offerings are different, like the way we’re, we’re showing up and offering things to people, right? Like there are people who only do courses, there are people who only do one on one, there are people who don’t do one on one, there’s all kinds of variety of how people show up. So remembering that like, you will still be uniquely you even if it feels like you’re close in personality to somebody else, or close and how you talk about things, you know, there, there really aren’t new things to talk about. We just have of our own perspectives and our own ways of communicating. And I think that’s the important thing to remember, you know, is like, what helps with that, too, is remembering, like, don’t, don’t get propped up too much by the good feedback. And don’t be pulled down too much by the negative feedback, because it’s just more like somebody felt connected to you. And that’s and it was a good fit. And then there are other people who are not your people, and it’s just not a good fit. It doesn’t mean anything about your expertise, right.
Patrick Casale 24:08
Yeah, that’s really well said. And another thing that I see a lot of and you know, this is always advice that I give people that are experiencing a lot of this impostor syndrome and insecurity is like, giving yourself permission to fail is really important. So when we’re trying something new, that’s out of our comfort zone, or a new idea for us that feels big, we’re gonna feel fearful, we’re gonna feel scared, we’re gonna have anxiety around the process. And to give ourselves permission to fail, whether you need to write that down, whether you need an affirmation, whatever the case may be, but I think about it as like riding your bike and falling down like you don’t give up after that. You just get back up and figure out how to do it. And it’s the same thing with like, I don’t know how to create a coaching course or a podcast or whatever. And then like, understanding that there are going to be bumps in the road, but you’re going to figure it out and you’re going to learn from the mistakes and the failures. So not using those as like, a break, right? Like it’s using it as a gas pedal. And I think that’s really important to keep in mind with a lot of this stuff.
Amber Hawley 25:07
Absolutely. Well, and even that you’re the example of the bike riding. It’s not a failure. It was a it was a misstep, right. It’s a, it’s a fall. And it’s part of the journey. Those falls are part of the journey. I don’t know if I’ve ever shared on the podcast, but years ago, this was probably it’s probably 10 years ago, I decided, because one of my specialties was maternal mental health, or is maternal mental health. And so I decided to run this patch. What was it called? It was like a petite pregnancy retreats. It was I called it petite because it well, I like things that rhyme, but also because it was like a one day thing, right? And so I was like, Okay, I’m gonna do this. And what ended up happening is, I only got one person that registered. So then I cancelled it, right? Because I was like, I have this in order to, I would have had to pay like the massage therapist and all the other stuff. So I was like, Okay, I’m just gonna cancel it. So but I rented a hotel space. So you have to you can’t get out of the hotel space, right? You have to pay for it. So I actually ended up hosting, I called it my marketing sucks brunch for my friends and family. And it was so funny, because we even had some friends show up. And they thought I was going to do like a pitch like, like, like a timeshare pitch or something. And I was like, no, no, no, my marketing sucks. So now we’re all having this wonderful, like brunch thing that I had to pay for anyway. So might as well enjoy ourselves, right? And I think when we can have that attitude of like, let’s have fun with it. Like, I didn’t look at it as like, oh my god, I obviously know nothing about maternal mental health, and I obviously suck. It was like, Dude, I didn’t do a good job of marketing. In all honesty, I can recognize that. Right? And that was part of that. putting myself out there stuff, right? And I was like, So what do you expect?
Patrick Casale 27:00
Playfulness is so important what this because again, I think it goes back to inner child shit. So going to like making impostor syndrome have like a funny voice or accent or a name of like, some someone or something you don’t respect or like, you know, like, I was calling my imposter syndrome for a long time. Like, I was calling it like Donald Trump. And I was saying, like, shut the fuck up a lot of the times and stuff like that, and like talking in a funny voice and like really minimizing and muting. And, you know, I know friends of mine who use like Harry Potter references, we were talking about impostor syndrome. And like, I like to conceptualize impostor syndrome as like a Bogart and Harry Potter, which is like a fear, right? And how do we combat fear is we make it playful? Like, we take the power away. And I think if you can create, like, creative strategies to make these things playful, it doesn’t have to have that much power over you anymore.
Amber Hawley 27:55
Oh, my gosh, I love the Bogart idea. That is so good. That is so good. Yeah, I mean, that’s the thing like looking approaching in a different way. Because sometimes we’re not going to out think ourselves, when we’re overthinking, we need to do something different, right? We just need to come from a different place or a different perspective. I love that one.
Patrick Casale 28:17
And we’re not going to out think this stuff, right? Like if it’s in our head, and it stays in our head, then there is no action. And we create these beliefs and thoughts that this can’t be done. But if you can get into movement, especially, you know, as neurodivergent people, right, like movement is important. Movement is crucial for creativity. So if we can get out of our head, and get into, you know, some sort of activity that evokes and elicits movement that creates creativity, it also allows you to almost feel freer to kind of put an idea out to the world. If I’m sitting in my office, right and I’m in my head and I can’t get through that like creative block. I’m like, feeling stuck, then I can’t really launch it. But if I’m like, at a coffee shop, like you and I have talked about if I’m out in nature, then I’m like, oh, idea, oh, I’m traveling idea. Now put it out to the world because I’m feeling really energized, putting it out to the world where you’re feeling trepidatious or like stuck, doesn’t really feel that good in a lot of ways.
Amber Hawley 29:16
Yeah. And I think you will come across as not very confident. And I think that’s the thing that people will pick up more on. Right. Like there’s some reticence in you. So I love that, as you said that it made me think well that’s an that’s another reason why I love doing like GSDs like somewhere outside of my office that’s out of my house. There’s a time I need this like cocoon. And you know, everything that I need is right there but there are times where and it is often that I’m working on creative projects that I need to get out of the house and go somewhere else. Although I will say my best ideas. My best brainstorming comes to me when I’m getting a massage like so maybe that has to do with body being in the body and movement as well.
Patrick Casale 29:59
I got Yeah, cuz you’re out of your head, right? You’re like, I can just be here I can just like, I can focus on the experience and whatever comes up comes up. Yeah. And, you know, I had this weird experience the other day, not that this has anything to do with imposter syndrome, but like, I know that a lot of neurodivergent people can relate of like energy bursts at night, and I woke up at like, 230 in the morning, speaking at night, your typical psychotherapy conference in November or November cheeses next month in May. And like, it’s about neurodivergent, superpowers and brain science. And like, I just had this like burst of energy. And I created my entire presentation at 230 in the morning while I was laying in bed on my phone. So now all of my ideas are in Drive, I just have to, like parse them out. But like, I really appreciate that about the way our brains work where it’s like, ooh, creativity, like, let’s fucking follow that. Because otherwise, I could have been like, you have to go to sleep. It’s 230. Like, you have to fall back asleep. And that never would have happened anyway. So I figured it was the best time to make it happen.
Amber Hawley 31:01
Yeah, well, that’s a great and that’s just another great strategy of when you are in that creative flow, capture it, like ride that wave. I think when you’re in that flow state, yeah, don’t resist it. Go with it. Right. And I think the only nation’s on it, ya know, and I think that’s when, when we’re in that space, we’re not sitting there worrying about how it’s going to be received. We’re just in that space of creation. So that’s a that’s a great tip, for sure. Well, if there’s Is there any other thing that you see when, you know, that comes up for people, when with impostor syndrome, or perfectionism, I mean, they definitely go hand in hand that you see as like a struggle or something that you’re like, Okay, this, this is actually super helpful to kind of get you unstuck from that space.
Patrick Casale 31:51
Two things, and they’re very different. One is like, you have to take culture into consideration with imposter syndrome. So I was doing so much research around this and like bipoc experience and for even female identifying experience, the recognition that for generations, you were told, You’re not good enough, you’re not equal. Like we’re just letting you be here from like, sis, white, hetero perspective, right? It’s like, we’re just letting you into the office or the boardroom, so to speak, make sense? Why you would question your competency pretty regularly, if like, that didn’t happen until 3040 years ago. So it makes a lot of sense why there’s a lot of messaging in society that says, You’re not equal, you’re not good enough, you’re not as competent. So when that comes up, like really trying to parse out the colonialism piece that is really hopefully helpful for people who have those experiences on like my own. And then on the flip side, perfectionism, I believe in imperfect action, like I believe in building the plane as you fly it, so to speak. So like, instead of saying, Before, I can launch this course idea, or retreat idea, or whatever, I have to have every single piece of the puzzle put together. In reality, you just need the concept, you just need the foundation, and then you build around it. So by putting it out to the world, it does a bunch of stuff, like it takes back the power so that it doesn’t control you anymore. It’s no longer just an idea, you’re actually making an action step by saying, even on your personal Facebook page is a great place to do it. If you have some good support around you. I’m going to do this thing, right, like I’m going to create this idea. And then you do have the grandmas of the world and friends and whoever like yeah, that’s a great idea. Okay, cool. It’s no longer in my head, then you start building around, putting it out to the world, because that’s what I did with my Ireland retreat. I just said, Hey, if I hosted an entrepreneurial retreat in Ireland who would come and I get all this overwhelming response, oh, shit, now I need to do it. So then it was like, find the venue, find the catering, put the landing page up, like do all the things but that doesn’t happen if we don’t just put it out there. Because we often think like, we have to have the end result before we can get started. And that’s really not how this works.
Amber Hawley 34:10
Yeah, and that’s my experience as well that I think the other piece of that when you are neurodivergent having something like there’s a strong external accountability, like once you’ve given something a date, or you’ve put it out to the public, it’s, it’s enough pressure to, to make sure you follow through and actually finish the thing, right? But if it’s not, if it’s not out there enough, then you’re like, oh, maybe I’ll just do it later. Or oh, you know, like I didn’t get to it, you know, but the more you put it out there you’re like okay, I have to follow through because now other people like either want to sign up or other people just know about it, it can be enough to be like, let me it gives you enough momentum right, in that. I want to go back to the piece though, because the piece about like colonialism and this idea between, you know, for bipoc people and women as well, where I think that’s a big piece. And this is something like the research shows us with like ADHD women, and and bipoc people that, that the imposter syndrome is huge. And I think like you said, this is coming from generations of being told you’re not equal, you’re not worthy. And so it’s so deep inside of us. So when we’re like, what’s wrong with me? Why am I scared to do this? Or why don’t I? Why do I have to go the extra mile to prove myself? Like, why do I have to push so hard? It’s often coming from these places that we’re not consciously aware of. Right?
Patrick Casale 35:41
Absolutely. And it’s, it’s one of those things that is, there’s a societal message and pressure. And I certainly as someone who has the utmost amount of privilege, you know, I just noticed people in my life who are bipoc, or just even female, identify in general like having to work 100 times harder. So just the realization of like, of course, I feel fraudulent. And like, I feel like I don’t necessarily belong here. Because I’ve been told through messaging and media and society that I don’t belong here. So it makes perfect sense to question your competency when you’ve been told you’re not competent your entire life or generationally.
Amber Hawley 36:20
And I think it still shows up like, this is something I’ve noticed that, you know, I’ve noticed, and I hear from a lot of like friends and colleagues, where it’s like, if they put an idea out there, they get a lot of critical feedback about it. But when a man puts it out there, it seems to be like, Oh, you’re so great. You’re so smart. It’s kind of like that thing, where, you know, we’re talking about in couples where it’s like, if the husband, like is watching us, kids are some watching him, if he’s taking care of his kids, he’s parenting. It’s like, Oh, my God, he’s so great. You have such a great guy. But if the wife is doing that, it’s like, Well, duh, like, you should be like, you’re supposed to be doing that. Right? It’s kind of that same concept where, and I think that’s very frustrating. And obviously, all of this stuff with whether, you know, you’re a person of color or a woman, this stuff still happens. So some of it is that generational unconscious stuff that we’ve all, but we’ve all grown up in the patriarchy and learned and some of it, it’s like this shit still happening. Like we still live in a patriarchy.
Patrick Casale 37:26
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, spot on. So shout out. And kudos to all of you that are working so much harder to get to where you want to be. And I think it’s really wonderful though. Just watch Breaking Through those ceilings, too. And just being like, there are so many incredible bipoc entrepreneurs out there, there are so many incredible female, identifying entrepreneurs and coaches and just leaders out there and it’s really fucking awesome to witness.
Amber Hawley 37:50
Yeah. Well, I think that’s, you know, I hope that I hope that this is helpful for somebody because, you know, I think we’ve touched on a lot of different facets of like, the things that contribute to impostor syndrome and perfectionism. Although, what I was gonna say, I just forget the word, but I was gonna say not spoiler alert, but what’s fuck? I just ruined the joke. I hate wonder fucking ruin a joke like that. I was gonna say, you know, like, just to let you know, this is not an exhaustive list of things that can cause impostor syndrome. I was trying to be funny, but I ruined it. Boo.
Patrick Casale 38:31
Don’t message Amber’s saying, like, but you forgot this, this, this wasn’t included? Yes, there’s always gonna be like, a bunch of extra criteria, right? And we can’t quantify or qualify all of it in one conversation. So naming that
Amber Hawley 38:47
this is both not our book or our TED Talk. So you’re just gonna have to excuse us? Awesome. Well, I guess I it’s been so great having you on and having this conversation. And, you know, I feel like, we could have many conversations, especially about neuro divergence, because it’s such a, it does impact us in so many ways that I think we’re not even aware of, we’re just so used to dealing with it. Right. But if there’s one last nugget of something, no pressure that you want to leave our listeners with, what would it be,
Patrick Casale 39:24
really started to embrace the motto of just doubt yourself and do it anyway. And I think that really ties into impostor syndrome and perfectionism. So it’s okay to doubt yourself. It’s normal to doubt yourself, it’s going to happen and don’t let that paralyze you from doing the things that you want to actively pursue and the things that you really want to kind of create in this world.
Amber Hawley 39:45
I love that. Perfect. Perfect. Thank you so much, Patrick, for coming on. And if people want to find out more information about you, where should they go?
Patrick Casale 39:55
I appreciate you having me on and I’m really glad that we’ve connected and I’m glad that you’re in Nashville. You can go to allthingspractice.com for coaching entrepreneurial retreats, information about upcoming programs and you can listen to the All Things private practice podcast on all major platforms.
Amber Hawley 40:13
Awesome. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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