Letting Go of Perfectionism and Trigger Words with Dr. Jane Tornatore
We all want to do our best, but many of us neurodivergent entrepreneurs struggle with perfectionism. We see perfection everywhere we look, but never within ourselves.

There’s really no such thing as perfection because there’s always room for improvement. That’s one of the “gifts” of being human, that we thrive on growth and development.

But sometimes perfectionism can hold us back from taking action and our ego gets in the way. We get down on ourselves because something that “should” feel easy is challenging for us. The reality is that letting go of those thoughts and focusing on what truly is easy for us may be a better way.

This week on the podcast, I’m chatting with Dr. Jane Tornatore about perfectionism and the words we need to let go of in order to get ourselves out of the trap. She shares with us some great tips for getting unstuck and I start to rework my own language…and immediately feel the results!

About Dr. Jane Tornatore:
Dr. Jane Tornatore is a brain geek and self love expert based in Seattle, WA. As a psychotherapist, speaker, and author, she works with intelligent, motivated, high-achieving women who are committed to being better people, yet, they never feel better ENOUGH. Women who want to finally like themselves and stop second-guessing their decisions.

What separates Jane from other coaches and therapists is her down to earth, humorous, practical, and SIMPLE approach. And because of this, her clients become aware of the unconscious beliefs that keep them stuck and unsatisfied, so they can choose thoughts and actions that actually work for them rather than making them feel like crap. She received a master’s degree at the University of Illinois, and a PhD at the University of Minnesota. She has authored over 20 articles and published a book—Everything is Perfect, Just Not ME! A Roadmap for Self-Acceptance. Connect with her on LinkedIn and follow her on Instagram.

Links & Resources:

Time Stamps:

[2:01] – The big benefit of in-person events
[2:54] – More about Dr. Jane Tornatore
[4:43] – We’re the wrong species for perfection
[6:15] – The only time perfectionism doesn’t show up for Amber
[8:30] – Getting out of the perfectionism trap
[9:45] – Amber practices letting go
[12:30] – Shifting from “have to” to “get to”
[13:12] – Love-hate relationship with positive affirmations
[15:35] – Toxic positivity that goes along with affirmations can be a turn-off
[16:32] – We learn that appreciating ourselves is bad
[17:36] – Imposter syndrome in neurodivergent women is off the hook
[19:28] – How will you help people if you’re not thriving
[20:50] – You don’t have to help everyone
[23:06] – If it’s not for my highest good, it’s for no one’s highest good
[27:30] – Doing something out of alignment won’t work in the long run
[30:10] – Your ego is going to tell you that you don’t know what you’re doing
[31:15] – It’s a good thing babies don’t have an ego
[33:40] – Radical acceptance of behaviors
[37:19] – We never congratulate ourselves when we do something right
[39:27] – We’ve learned: You can be yourself or you can be loved
[43:29] – If we feel we’re getting extra stuck in perfectionism, it’s helpful to see things in a different way
[44:27] – Tell yourself you’re okay


Amber Hawley 0:01
Business owners are increasingly being pulled in so many directions, feeling like they aren’t reaching their full potential in business and life despite their type aways. With my background as a therapist, entrepreneur, and as a.com dropout with ADHD, I interview and coach high achieving business owners like you who want to stop struggling for success by using psychological systems, strategies, and the occasional care for entation. This is the easily distracted entrepreneur, your place to slay overwhelm perfectionism and shiny object syndrome so that you can get done what matters most to you.

Amber Hawley 0:40
Hello, hello, hello, Happy Wednesday. I’m really excited for today’s episode. It is for all my fellow perfectionist out there. And I know there’s just a few. And it is an interview with my friend and colleague, Dr. Jane Tornatore, who is a psychologist and self described brain geek and self love expert, who I met, it turns out that I already forgot eight years ago, eight years ago, my How time flies, and met at a conference and we just connected and so I was so excited when she reached out about wanting to come on and share her message around helping people and especially women with their perfectionistic tendencies. And to let go of some of that. So we had a fantastic conversation we explored so much, and I, I really think you will find it valuable. And we’re going to dive right in and get started. Hello, Jane, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 1:51
Thanks, Amber, I am delighted to be talking with you.

Amber Hawley 1:55
And me too. Before we hit record, we were catching up. And this This is another one of those stories I have so many of these have. I met you at a conference and we figured out it was eight years ago, which feels like a lifetime. And this is why I love in person events because you meet people and you just well the ENFP in me would say I fell in love and but when you connect with people, and if even if you don’t talk all the time, or even in eight years, you still feel like you’re connected or like we’re old friends, of course. So I’m very excited to have you on and talk about a really important topic that I know so many of the listeners struggle with and myself. Yes, I mean, hashtag humans, humans deal with it. And that’s perfectionism. But before we get into that, can you share with everybody a little bit more about you?

Dr. Jane Tornatore 2:53
Yeah, I’m now based in Seattle, which is seriously an amazing place to live. We’ve got mountains, we’ve got water, we don’t have very, very cold. I am thrilled. And I’m also I’m also a therapist and a coach and an author and a speaker. I can add because you know, ADHD was I

Amber Hawley 3:14
know, I know what other amazing things. How about thought leader?

Dr. Jane Tornatore 3:19
Thought- Oh, I like that one.

Amber Hawley 3:21
Yeah, let’s just keep going.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 3:22
I just was talking with somebody today. And I realized, Oh, my God, this is what I do. I help people move from only their head to also their heart, oh, I be with her head and our heart. We get problems when we’re only in our head. Or it’s hard to like, you know, survive and do stuff. When we’re only in our heart. I like to help people create that balance that I just figured out this morning.

Amber Hawley 3:49
I love that I love when you have those moments where things kind of come together. Like there’s, you know, like, there’s like an alignment or an awareness of like, Oh, that’s it. And that’s beautiful. I think that’s really profound. Thank you. Because you’re right. Like that’s, I mean, we see this right, we see, like people either, you know, per separating, being neurotic, or people just all in their feelings and not, you know, being able to kind of like think through the bills. I was like, for me, it’s like, one day, I’m one of those people and the next day, I’m the other person. Say I’m all hard. Awesome. Yeah. And I think people are probably like, Oh, I got it. I get why she why she likes her. Why camber? Like sociate. So, yeah, so you wrote a book that I think has like the perfect title ever. And it’s called everything is perfect. Just not me, which is one of my I would say life philosophies. I always say we’re in the wrong species for perfection.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 5:00
Yes. You know what I was just thinking though, before we came on that that the, you know, there’s a gift to everything and the gift of perfectionist is, we really know things can be better. And we will keep driving and keep pushing and keep doing because we know it can be better. So that’s the gift. The problem is when the ego is is in there. And it’s not good enough, it’s still not good enough, and you suck, because it’s not good enough still. So it’s that it’s that, you know, coming into the gift without letting it drive us.

Amber Hawley 5:33
Yeah, well, and that’s the struggle, right? Because that’s yeah, how do you tap into the strength of something without letting that shadow side take you down? And I think that’s the thing like that perfectionism, that pursuit for growth to be a better person to show up better in the world to help people in a more efficient, productive way is fantastic. And it Yeah, I know, that drives me and I want to I want to help people not suffer for success or suffer from you know, all the shit in their head. But at the same time, like, you feel like is this good enough? Yes.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 6:12
Yeah. That’s a hard actually, at the same time. We’re almost like, it’s not good enough. Like, how often do we go? Done? How often does that happen with perfectionist?

Amber Hawley 6:27
Yeah, not not very, not very well, you know, interesting now that you said the thing about the head in the heart. I just had this awareness when I was I was doing some office hours on Monday. And I was talking to somebody about this. And then it had my own awareness of like, what I was doing. I wasn’t following my advice, which I hate when that happens, right? Yes, yeah. And then I realized I said, I love doing like live things with people. So when I do like group coaching, or the office hours is essentially group coaching. I leave feeling energized and fantastic. Because it’s the combo of the two I’m in I’m using my knowledge, my expertise. But I get to connect with people on a personal level and see them and they feel seen, and that is so magical to me. Like, that was always my struggle of like getting out of the room, the therapy room, right? Because I said, the magic that happens in that therapy room. How do you do that like in a course or in a book or it’s so hard? And so that was the perfect syncing of those two things. And I didn’t think of it that way till you just said what you said. But I think that’s the only time my perfectionism isn’t there. Because I leave going like that fucking rocks.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 7:43
You’re absolutely right. When I’m working, especially with groups, I leave and I’m like, I will sometimes say to myself, oh my god, that was brilliant. And egoic way but that was so like, in a heart. I loved that.

Amber Hawley 7:58
Yes, yes, mine is a little bit sometimes you go because I joking. I mean, because I feel it. I’m like that I was on fire. Over which I got a ballon vote because it’s that other stuff. Like you said, when you’re when you have all those other times where you do something or you create something until there’s any feedback sometimes right then and even when there’s feedback, let’s face it, it’s like that wasn’t good enough. I got to do it better. I should rerecord it, you know, even when people give you positive feedback, right? So how do we how do we get out of that? That trap?

Dr. Jane Tornatore 8:31
Oh, my goodness. Well,

Amber Hawley 8:33
there are two things that I saw. That’s the only question.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 8:36
Okay, great. spent six hours just on that. You just what you just said, when our ego comes in, I should do that. I gotta I gotta make it better. I have to, if I were clean in the world, and this is one of the things in my book, if I were queen of the world, I would ban the word should, must have to need and gotta. Because all those words are egoic based. And they whenever we say them, we’re basically saying I’m failing, and I’m failing, and I’m failing and failing. Because when we say it like that, we already should have done it. It should already be done. So even when we do it, there’s no reward. I should have done that yesterday. I should have done it better now. Right?

Amber Hawley 9:14
Yes. There’s no satisfaction then even when? Done. Right. Exactly.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 9:19
And how motivated talk about distracting ourselves? How motivated are we to do something that makes us feel bad no matter what literally drives us away from what we want to be doing? Yeah. So when I’m working with people I say, you know, say something you always have. I couldn’t do it now.

Amber Hawley 9:36
Oh, you want to do it on me? Yes. Oh, I’m the perfect candidate for this show. So do it.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 9:42
Yes. So what’s something you should do?

Amber Hawley 9:45
Well, this is I am one of those full disclosure people maybe too much, but this is exactly what was happening this week. I pre sold a course that I I knew I should never pre sell a course because it feels like too much pressure I should like I’ll create it and then sell it, which is always what I’ve done. Right? But this time I pre sold the ends. And I said, No, I can’t do it the easy way. Because I usually like to do things the easy way that works best. I needed you in a specific way to be the most helpful. So everything again, that I get. And so and then I kept putting it off. And then I and then I did it, and didn’t do it as good as I thought I should, but I accidentally deleted everything. Then I went on a week long trip that I had already had planned, so bad timing that I was behind. So then, like you said, even though I was doing stuff, I was like, Well, I’ve already failed. Everyone. Everyone hates me blah, blah, blah. And then it keeps going, it keeps going and I literally got sick for a week, I manifested all this shit. So every day I am I have to record one more module. I should record one more module. Right. I should have done it already. On Monday. Why didn’t I do it? Monday? That’s

Dr. Jane Tornatore 11:00
close your eyes. Okay. What does your body feel after you said that?

Amber Hawley 11:04
Well, I actually feel a little amped up, right? Yeah. I feel I feel the I feel like adrenaline and kind of like a pit in my stomach.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 11:12
Okay, great. Now, open your eyes, and say, it’d be either whatever feels best to you, it’d be a good idea. Or it’d be helpful if I did a module today.

Amber Hawley 11:22
Hmm. It would be helpful if I did a module today.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 11:26
Great, close your eyes? And what do you feel in your body?

Amber Hawley 11:29
I actually makes me feel really calm.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 11:35
How these little words make a difference, because when you say it’d be helpful, it’s a good idea. You are only saying what is true? No value judgment, no beating up? No, it’s too late. It’s just like, simply, yes, it would be helpful. That’s right. And then when you think about it, you don’t have this pit in your stomach, you’re just like, that’s, I could do that. Right? There’s no internal resistance that we create with should must have to need gotta,

Amber Hawley 12:04
I know that. And I actually I see sometimes we need those. They’re so simple, but so transformative. I had been using, like on so on Sunday, I ended up staying up till three in the morning recording modules. Oh, and then of course, one recorded without sound, which is because everything was plugged in and everything was working. Right. So but I kept saying I kept saying a lot. I tried to do a shift it from I have to where I need to, to I get to like that was one of my I get to record modules to help people blah, blah. But frankly, the stress level was too far. And I already was like, Well, you already fucked it up. You’re already late. You already are dropping the ball. You know, and I and you know, the irony of what I’m teaching folks is like fucking feels like a dagger. Right? So, but there’s something about and I think there’s times where when I shift it to I get to it really is helpful to me. This is where you are right. But this time it wasn’t. It wasn’t helpful. So it would be helpful feels so much better. Yes.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 13:10
Yeah, here’s my problem with positive affirmations. I have a love hate relationship with them. And up until about three years ago, it was complete hate because I would say they’re gonna go I suck. You’re not happy. So when we sue do an affirmation, it’s just a little bit of a stretch, and it’s awesome, then it moves us forward to what we want. But if we say something like, I remember I first started to learn about affirmations right after I graduated from grad school, a lot of debt, not making much money and I would say I am wealthy and then my brain would go that is such bullshit Ching. You are so not wealthy you are so Indian. And so I would feel really bad for my affirmations. But if I said I would like to have more money Yeah, of course of course I would. Right then it was just a little stretch but our psyches know are for lying I get to do this No, I want to go to sleep is what I really go in times like that. It’s it’d be a good idea it would be helpful when it’s really true. I want to I get to then that’s more propelling to what we want to do. charges us but if we’re not there, it just and I suck because I supposed to I’m supposed to want to get to do this. And I am hating this. Yeah, we feel worse.

Amber Hawley 14:29
It’s so that’s so true. And I’m glad you said that because, uh you know, when I when I think about when I’m working with clients, we’re talking about trying to do some kind of affirmation work like as a part of things. I say the same thing like you want to say stuff that’s not bullshit, but sometimes you do have to stretch ourselves a little bit like to kind of, you know, there’s there’s a time and a place for it, like you said, but when you’re mired in extreme stress, it you do need something that resonates with you like you Do something is ego syntonic They would say that it needs to resonate with how you feel about yourself and what’s going on in the situation. Because sometimes there are, you know, those are there are times when that I get to that shift for me, like, you know, if I’m, I like to say my new favorite saying is, if I’m being a big baby bitch and when I’m like, I mean big baby bitch, okay now like I get to go, you know, exercise or be with my kids or whatever. And I can feel it because I am feeling grateful for, you know, having a body that works and all this other stuff. But there are those times that it doesn’t work. I love that. And I agree, I think I think a lot of people are feeling that the toxic positivity that goes along sometimes with affirmations. Yeah, it can be a real turnoff, right?

Dr. Jane Tornatore 15:47
Yeah. And perfectionist. We’re like, No, I gotta use the best affirmation. I only have to use a really best one. If I do a wimpy one that it’s not really working like.

Amber Hawley 15:58
You’re like, that wasn’t in a positive reframe. And it’s not specific. It needs to be better. Exactly. Yeah, no, that’s so good. So one of them is shifting how we’re talking to herself, allows us to step out of that perfectionism a little bit.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 16:23
Absolutely. Okay. And the second thing is that you reminded me when you said it, yeah, come out from group work. And I’m like, that was awesome. Is so many of us, especially as perfectionist, we learned that appreciating ourselves or something we did is bad. Like pride is now associated with bad and selfish and I’m better than you. Were isn’t my mind. Pride is really like, wow, I’m really happy with that. And it has no need to be compared to anybody else. When our pride is self focused, it’s awesome. When it’s, I need to be better than you. That’s when it’s toxic. So we left we let go of our pride because we always I, and now I think I’m better than other people. No, I’m just thrilled with me. Like, that’s more possible than I think we’ve been trained.

Amber Hawley 17:14
And I do think I think that, like, culturally, women are conditioned more to even feel that too. Yes. That yeah, that being prideful means you think you’re better than people or it’s a bad thing. I think we get a lot of that conditioning. We know when you’re neurodivergent. I mean, this is something that’s talked about a lot in the ADHD world. Imposter syndrome for women with ADHD is off the hook. Yes. And it’s what people don’t get because this is where I say sometimes people don’t get nuanced, right? You can be somebody who is like, I am educated. I am an expert. I know my shit. I feel confident I feel I can help people. And I also feel at times what the fuck that’s not good enough. I’m not you know, I don’t know what I’m talking about. Somebody else is doing it better. Maybe I missed something. Like they both can be true it so sometimes people will be like, I don’t have impostor syndrome. And then you talk about stuff and you’re like, Okay, well, whatever you want to call it. It’s coming up, right? This self doubt or this feeling of? It’s yeah, if you that all of a sudden, if you were to congratulatory of yourself if you’re a narcissist, right, like we love to call me exactly.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 18:27
And if I’m too self congratulatory, I’ll stop trying to be better, which is such That’s crap. It’s just that’s not true, right? We’re always going to want to be better. That’s a secret of our nature.

Amber Hawley 18:40
Yeah, that’s a good point, though. And that’s, that’s where I like, I’m in a few different groups that I’ve joined, where they really talk about people sharing their wins and sharing it with in a judgment free zone where it’s not like, oh, what’s wrong with you? Or look at her talking about money or talking about this? They happen to be money mindset groups, right. But which is really good. But that’s, and then yeah, I noticed like, there’s safety in there. And you start to build up some confidence in that. And then you go out in the real world, and I can see people’s faces sometimes when you talk about shaking your leg up that nope, wasn’t supposed to go there. I guess that wasn’t the right place. So yeah, do you think that’s part of it is not having not having like enough supportive environments in which it’s okay to feel proud of ourselves?

Dr. Jane Tornatore 19:34
Absolutely. That’s what I loved. The conference we went to was the first time I was with a group of therapists, that it was okay to want to make enough money to thrive. Yes, because therapists especially seem to have this mindset of I need to serve but if I get too much money, I’m not really serving. I’m being selfish. And I’m like, yeah, that doesn’t really work for me, because how am I going to help people if I’m not Writing.

Amber Hawley 20:00
Exactly, exactly. Well, and I think it’s yeah, a lot of people who identify as helpers, right, but it’s kind of ingrained in you as a therapist, like everyone who’s gone to, like a master’s program or PhD program, I’m sure you heard. Yeah, well, you’re not in it for the money, right? So, but I think there are a lot of people who are like helper archetypes or nurturers, and they feel that same thing. And you you don’t have to go very far. You could go in a Facebook group of therapists to hear people slamming you like, oh, well, I’m here to help people and blah, blah. And I was like, they don’t have to be mutually exclusive. Right? Not and they shouldn’t be, like you said, we’re taught, don’t get in the pit with your clients. Like we need to be able to give, you know, like, help people. We don’t need to join them in the misery like how can you help people when you are stressed about paying your bills?

Dr. Jane Tornatore 20:48
Sadly, right? And I don’t know, do you find this that when people are helpers, especially women, we learned that we should help everyone? Oh, like if people need help, it’s our obligation to help them even if it does not serve us, even if it directs, you know, we all have those clients, we get done with the session, and we’re like, Oh, my God, or that, you know, those people you meet, like, I was talking with a friend of mine, who’s an organizer, and she worked with a client, and the clients like, You’re not very helpful. And I’m like, you don’t have to work with her. It’s not she’s not helping you be a happy camper. Right? But we think we should especially right, you know, we all have those, those people we work with, who are just so like, nobody else will help me.

Amber Hawley 21:41
Mm hmm. Yeah. And it’s hard. Because when you do care about people, but sometimes knowing like, you can’t do your best work or show up for them, if it’s not your if it’s not in alignment with you. It’s so weird. I was just on a call like an hour and a half ago. And somebody was talking about this, that they they have a very, they have a successful business. And they’re thinking of adding this one thing on. And they’re like, I have a servant’s heart. And I want to be able to help families, but they work with executives. And so I actually posted in the chat, and I was like, I’m not sure how this is going to be received. But I said something similar to that of, you know, like, I only work with adults, I work with entrepreneurs I work with, you know, executives and adults in different capacities on stuff. It’s not because I don’t care about kids. I feel like helping the adults helps the kids. Yeah, but there are people who are so good to help the kids and the families because she said I was thinking of doing that. And I’m like, my thing is I realized I would be spread way too thin. Yeah. And it wouldn’t it wouldn’t be that, that work that, that I feel like I’m the best at you know, and so but I get the pull, of course, because I’ve had those times where clients like referred like a family member and, and they’re like I would love to but, you know, like, I just can’t like that’s not my I can’t do it. I’m not I mean, I could but I don’t want to.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 23:03
One of the phrases. I say to myself a lot because I’m one of those people like no, I should help everybody is if it’s not for my highest good. It’s for no one’s highest good. Is for me highest good is for everyone’s highest good, it works for everybody. And if I’m sucking, and just feel that energy sucking out me is I’m working with somebody that’s not for my highest good. So why would I want to work with somebody? And if I were somebody, I wouldn’t want somebody to work with me. If I knew they would leave going, Oh, God, I’m so exhausted. That was torture. Like, I wouldn’t want to have been my service provider. Yeah, yeah, that always helps me and my clients is if it’s not for my highest good. It’s for it’s not for their highest good either.

Amber Hawley 23:50
No, I like that. I think that’s really good.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 23:53
It really helps me say no, sometimes.

Amber Hawley 23:55
Do you? Yeah, I was gonna say, Do you think that sometimes like perfectionism, you know, first both being a helper type of person, wanting to be helpful wanting to make an impact, being a caring, I guess a lot of people call it like heart centered, right? Being a heart centered entrepreneur. Do you think that’s the push or do you think there is some of this perfectionism? Like, I need to be helpful to everybody I need to be I need to be all things. Do you think that’s part of it?

Dr. Jane Tornatore 24:24
I think it’s both that’s the head and the heart. Right? Because we do often have both were none of us are always in our head are always in our heart, as you said earlier. So it’s yeah, I need to I really love this. I want to do this, but I need to. I really love like, so that’s when we when we’re having that tug for me it’s better when I pull into my heart and go what does my heart want here? What would be for the highest good here? And for me, I love my ego. It keeps me safe. It keeps me doing all it keeps me learning stuff. It’s great. Yes. I don’t want it to be the leader in the program. I want my heart to be a leader with it with the ego going, Hey, here’s some useful information. Thanks.

Amber Hawley 25:09
I love that. I love that. And I think that’s also the opposite advice we hear so much in entrepreneurship. Oh, yes, I think it’s, I think it’s always like, use logic, which we know is bullshit, right? Like, it’s there. When you i, especially as a couples therapist, whatever, I have one person. And the couple is like, Well, I’m a logical I was like, you’re using your data points that you feel are logical. And they’re using their data points that they feel as logical route, you’d still coming from the same place, my friend, Zack,

Dr. Jane Tornatore 25:43
I can’t tell you how many programs I’ve taken. And they have this system, the system works. And I take I take it, and I’m like, this does not work for me. And when I get there helps a whole lot of people. But it doesn’t do their system just does not my heart goes, Stop it now is not authentic to who I am. So you know, God bless them for having programs that work for so many people. But I’m kind of I, it’s important for me to follow. What’s true for me, way more than what’s true for somebody else. That’s a really hard spot to be when you’re trying something new man. Oh, yeah. Your audiences, entrepreneurs, mostly, it’s like, good luck people.

Amber Hawley 26:27
Well, I don’t want to make a generalization because I’ve taken a lot of programs by men that I thought were really useful. But I tend to find that the tactics, when I’ve taken certain programs, or you know, gone to events or trainings by entrepreneurial men, were their only teaching tactics that work for men. And they don’t, they don’t take into consideration like, one how people respond to women differently, how we approach things differently, like all of it, right? And so I think some of it’s that too, like, that’s part of it. It’s like it doesn’t, it doesn’t connect in the same way, and therefore it won’t work for you. Because it’s not, like you said, there’s there has to be, even if it pushes us outside our comfort zone, which I always think there’s value in that. Yes, like push ourselves outside our comfort zone. But ultimately, it’s supposed to be in alignment with what feels good to us.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 27:26
Right? Yeah. If we’re doing something out of alignment, it’s not going to work. Not not for the long run. Yeah. Right. Like the self help books, I just suddenly realized one day, you know, there are gazillion self help books. And you know, I wrote one too. But what I realized is people write what works for them. Yeah. Like, I write what works for me, and the people who work with me, they come to me, because what I do works for them. But what our job is to find if we’re searching for stuff externally, the stuff that is in alignment with us, and that’s the stuff we’re gonna go and go Yeah, let’s do it. Yay. And, you know, for fighting against what’s true for us our alignment, it’s just, it’s like, Should must have to need all day long,

Amber Hawley 28:14
right? Which feels like shit.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 28:18
Yeah, exactly. What’s wrong with me that I can’t do it?

Amber Hawley 28:21
Yeah, yes. Oh, my gosh, I hear that all the time, all the time. And it breaks my heart. And by the way, I say that to myself all the time. I shouldn’t say all the time. I do say it to myself when I have those days where I’ve made decisions outside of what I know works and to be true. Like, yeah, what I did when I pre sold and, but, you know, then it’s coming back to okay, how can I purchase different How can like, Okay, I made this choice, but like, we’re human, and we have to experiment. And we have to forgive ourselves. Yeah. And then, you know, like, for me, it was I felt much better when I just was like, Okay, I need to adjust one, I have to be a little more playful without being too too serious. You’re right, you’re right. It would be helpful if I adjusted and got a little playful. And I did I got a little playful with it. And I allowed myself and this is that perfectionistic thing of, I should never I should never cancel. Yeah, I should never, like, if I gave if I said something I have to live up to that word. Yeah. And it was it took me two days to send an email saying, Hey, this is what happened. I know that doesn’t matter. I fucked up. This is the new timeline. Yeah. And here it is, you know, like, what can I do beyond that? Right? Right. So it certainly took a lot though to get that. I love that you’re here. I’m gonna I’m gonna be using this all the time. Now. It would be helped Oh, I love it, it would be helpful. And so yeah, so when people are in those places where they’re so they’re in entrepreneurship, they’re trying something new or they’re feeling stuck, or they’re, they’re like, this is something I want to do. Yeah, but I’m feeling paralyzed. I’m feeling overwhelmed. I’m feeling all the shoulds. What is another strategy that you think is helpful for people beyond the first two that we talked about?

Dr. Jane Tornatore 30:27
Well, it’s super simple. Anytime we do something new, our egos kind of come in and go, you don’t know what you’re doing. You’re gonna screw up. You don’t know what you’re doing? Or like, no, of course I don’t because it’s something new. But you should know what you’re doing before you do it. But I can’t actually know. So for me, it’s a talking back to my ego of I hear you. And I’m going to do it anyway. Right? Just because we feel anxious or afraid. What we’ve learned is, oh, that means we shouldn’t do it. All it really means is, oh, I’m doing something new. But we give a different meaning to it, than what is really true. It’s like, of course, I’m doing something new. I’m afraid I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m just kind of taking one step at a time. And we learned that that’s not okay. One of the things I always say to my clients is, it’s a good thing. Babies don’t have a full, you know, ego. I tried to walk three times, and I didn’t do it. I’m done. Never gonna walk and failures of baby walker. Like we don’t do that baby’s like, up, down, up, down, up, down. But we forget that you forget that. That’s, that’s being human. Yeah. So look, I’m scared, of course. And this is new. Hello. We go, trying to keep me safe. But I want to grow beyond my safety. That’s all we’re doing as entrepreneurs is once not all we do, but frequently, we are almost always growing beyond our safety.

Amber Hawley 31:53
Mm hmm. I like that. I mean, I like that perspective on it. Because because I think the difference in that is it’s saying, I’m looking at this as a growth opportunity. Yeah. Right. And I’m pushing myself as opposed to I think sometimes it’s like, I’m trying things and failing. And it’s very, like, I’m not capable, right there. I think there’s that the growth mindset versus that fixed mindset. I think that’s, that’s, I like that. I’m growing. Beyond my safety.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 32:25
Yeah. And I’m choosing this. I’m actually choosing, I did that blanket, in my mind now what it was, but it was doing, oh, I was sitting in an infrared sauna. I don’t really like being hot. And sitting there with nothing to do. I tried to take a book in, but the book melts. So you know, I’m sitting there all by myself is an ADHD person going and hot and I’m bored.

Amber Hawley 32:49
To have my worst thing ever.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 32:52
Exactly. But I was sitting there going, Well, I’m choosing to do this. This is really uncomfortable. But it’s also really good for my cells and tumors or T lumbers or hobbies. It’s really good for me, so I’m choosing this. And then I’m like, Okay, I’m uncomfortable. But I am choosing like, nobody’s making me sit in this sauna. Right? I’m here, because it’s a good thing for me. So I just sat there with the discomfort without making it bad. I was like, Yeah, I’m super hot. But it didn’t add anything else. Like I didn’t add suffering on to the to the discomfort, which is what our ego does it add suffering on? I don’t know what I’m doing. Yeah, you’re right. You’re an idiot. You’re stupid. You shouldn’t versus I don’t know what I’m doing. You’re right.

Amber Hawley 33:35
Yes, yes.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 33:36
Imagine if we just stop there.

Amber Hawley 33:38
Yeah, I, I, when I, when I talk to people about that, or when I do it for myself, I kind of think of it as like radical acceptance of myself. Because I have used this example before, where, you know, I’ve been with my husband for 25 years. And I am like, a clean freak, like I like I probably have OCD, OCPD tendencies. I’m like, I love things, everything in its place. However, something about doing laundry is it may as well be climbing Everest for years. Like I would constantly have to rewatch things that were sitting in the washer, I would get dressed out of the dryer, and it would make my husband nuts. You know, he’s like military background. And, and he would, he would like give me a hard time. And usually I can take we banter and I can take his jokes, but I would be very sensitive to it. And I would get really upset. And then I would feel judged like I wasn’t doing it good enough, right. And I would feel a lot of judgment. And it was so funny, because at some point, and I think it wasn’t until it which should, I don’t know why I should say I’m gonna set it now. Why I don’t know why it came. But when I found out finally just like five years ago that I have ADHD, then all of a sudden I was like, well, that’s just my thing. And so now ever since then, like he gives me a hard time about it and I’m like, I don’t care. It’s just not my thing and it literally You could say anything and I have zero impact because I no longer like, Why would I care if I do laundry? Well, like, that’s my thing. Like, right? And I’m like, and it’s a joke to me now. And so there was like an acceptance of this is who I am. And this is what it is. So who cares? Right, right. And I think we can use that in so many areas of, you know, both business and personal. Like, that’s just one example of how I do it. But whenever you get to that place where you can take something, and it’s and it’s like, there’s no, yeah, there’s no judge, there’s no value judgment. It’s not good. It’s not bad. It just is right,

Dr. Jane Tornatore 35:36
right. It’s a thing I do, it doesn’t reflect my value. Imagine if everything was according to that kind of mindset. This is what I do. It doesn’t reflect my value. We only get mad when people correct us and I do this, I just did this with my partner the other day, I’m like, why are you telling me I suck? He said, Well, I just said you could do something in this order. Yeah, well, why are you telling me I stop? And he’s like, I’m actually not.

Amber Hawley 36:05
Yeah, that’s like, have you seen that tick tock, where that it’s like the kid, it’s like a baby voice who says something about or is it’s like, you know, my mom says something about I can’t, I don’t, they’re not gonna feed me anymore. And I they’re gonna, I can’t live here anymore, and blah, blah, blah. And then it’s the parents voice is saying, like, that’s not what I said. What I said is, can you pick up your clothes or something like that? And you’re like, it’s the same thing that feels right. It’s like, it feels like that, because we’re attaching. We’re attaching meaning to it.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 36:43
Right? I remember I was in grad school, and there’s a child expert up on the stage. And she said, our value is not what we do. And I was in my 30s. And I was sitting there in the audience going, I know she’s the expert, but she’s wrong. If I do something bad, I am bad. What’s wrong with her? But I was smart enough to know, she’s kind of the expert. And she’s, she’s like, been through grad school and is the teacher. So maybe it’d be good to like, consider her idea. And that was the first time I really realized, Oh, I just do stuff and I make mistakes. But that doesn’t mean I am a mistake. And what’s fascinating with I don’t know if everybody feels this or just perfectionist, but we’re never good. When we do. Oh, I did this thing. Well, so I’m a good person. Like, that’s never the equation. It’s always I did I screwed up. I’m bad. Like, is that weird?

Amber Hawley 37:37
That is so intriguing. Yes. It’s when you do good things. It’s like, well, that’s what you’re supposed to do.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 37:43
Exactly. I don’t get any accolades for that. I’m supposed to do that. I should be doing good things. Every single moment of my day.

Amber Hawley 37:49
Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. No, and that’s I think that’s the hard part. Right? It’s, it’s unlearning. Yeah, I mean, we’ve we get this, these messages come to us, like we didn’t, like you said, we’re not born with these messages. So we learned them. And there is that idea of like, if you’re good, you be you’re, you’re you have to be good to be good. And if you make mistake, you’re bad. Yeah. And so it’s like, we get that constantly and in school and in work and in our relationships and in our families. And so it’s hard to unlearn that, and that’s why I think it’s, you know, you know, a lot of people I talked to you are on their journey. It’s like, I’m a recovering perfectionist. Yes. Because it’s always a journey. It’s always going to be a journey always raining.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 38:38
This book bittersweet by Susan Cain, who also wrote quiet, which is an amazing book about in in mind, we’re introverts isn’t that the book? Bittersweet is an amazing book about introverts are quiet is an amazing book about introverts. I’m reading bittersweet, anyway,

Amber Hawley 38:57
because this is bittersweet about extroverts. Right, yeah, I did buy quiet because somebody recommended it. And then I was like, I don’t know if I can read that book.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 39:07
It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s an amazing, especially if you’re an extrovert. It really helps you understand introverts like I’m, I’m now more of an introvert than I was before. Before I was an extrovert and I’m like, Oh, my God, I get it now. Anyway, sweet, perfect book for now. But I read this sentence. She learned from her mother, I can be myself or I can be loved. Yeah. And I think that’s kind of what’s underneath. A lot of our perfectionism is I can be myself, or I can be left. So our perfectionism really is Okay, I gotta be lovable. I gotta be like me. Here’s a way to be lovable. And if I’m perfect, I’ll be lovable. And that’s kind of what’s driving us underneath. Where we’re if you have that radical self acceptance, you so wonderfully practice. We don’t need the perfectionism so much Hmm.

Amber Hawley 40:00
Well, I mean, I know this is something that we’re kind of taught in grad school. And I’m wondering if you feel that it resonates as true. They say that. And I know every theory, every concept is different, right? But at the core of it, we’re either feeling I am not lovable, or I am not worthy. You take whatever is going on in our lives. When we are coming from that place of lack, or needing to prove something or earn our value. It’s always I am not lovable, or I am not worthy.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 40:32
Yeah. It always comes down to that. And we’ve all got very different coping mechanisms to try to counter that, you know, deep core fear.

Amber Hawley 40:41
Right? Which, again, that’s why perfectionism is really hard to work on. Well, especially to it’s like one of those things like, you need to work harder on your perfectionist.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 40:55
Said, you’re a perfectionist. I’m like, No, I’m not. And they said, Why do you think you’re not a perfectionist? I said, well, because I’m not good enough to be a perfectionist. Oh, they’re like, ding, ding, ding.

Amber Hawley 41:08
Oh, I know, I know, it’s so crazy. Yeah, no, I think that’s, I mean, I just think it’s really helpful, like what you’re, you’re talking about, and because it is a struggle, it is one of those things that, you know, it’s like, we learn, we grow, and then we kind of stagnate. Or, or, or we fall back into those coping mechanisms, especially as we go through transitions, right. Like, I think about all of the people I know, in both my personal life and professional life, especially in the last two years, who are going through major life transitions and multiple ones, right. And then you think that’s when we kind of default back to that, like old way of being and we go back to those coping mechanisms that served us before. And so I think it’s always about, like, pushing and accepting. And then like, you know, kind of integrating it, but then we it continues, we continue to have to work on it, right?

Dr. Jane Tornatore 42:08
Yeah. Always. One of the things I say to my clients is, I’ll be working on this or you’ll be working on this till the day you die, hopefully. Yeah, right. We’re humans. There’s always more to grow into. There’s always more truth in ourselves to live into.

Amber Hawley 42:22
And sometimes though, we need to take breaks to nap and stuff. Absolutely. That’s my that’s always my fantasy. Even though I don’t take naps. I’m always like, naps.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 42:35
Let’s take I love that. I’m a nap taker.

Amber Hawley 42:37
Oh, I’m so jealous. My brain doesn’t shut off enough. My brain is just like to Okay. I love it. Well, I want to be thoughtful on time. But I that I, this was really helpful. And I love I love your energy. And I love your approach to things. It’s just very down to earth. And it’s, you know, and you have a lot of expertise here. And, and you know, you Yeah, I know, I know. Yes, I’m so experienced. But but I’m, I think it’s I’m so glad that you wrote the book, though, because I do think it’s one of those things where I think we constantly have to be constantly, we have to sit down, I’m gonna be super aware of every word I say. But eautiful Yeah, I think it’s about understanding that there are times where if we feel that we’re getting extra stuck in our perfectionism, that maybe it would be helpful to take a look at something to help us see things in a different way. Right? Absolutely. And I think that’s the value in it. It’s like, instead of saying like, well, I, I already know this, or I should know this already. It’s like, let me let me explore and see if this can resonate with me in a different way.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 43:54
Yeah. It’s such a kinder, more compassionate response to ourselves.

Amber Hawley 43:58
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I guess if you have one last nugget of wisdom to share with people if they’re in this place of feeling, if they’re feeling overloaded in the shoulds, and the half twos and the and the goddess and all the all the fancy shoulds right. Yeah. All the other ways to say should? Yeah, what what would be your, your final nugget of wisdom for people when they’re struggling in that

Dr. Jane Tornatore 44:26
often, and I’ve been learning a lot of new stuff lately. I will put my hand on my heart closed my eyes and go, okay. You’re okay. You’re doing you’re doing just fine. You’re struggling, but you’re okay. And it’s just a very simple and hand on the heart. Really helps settle me a lot, especially in my mind that I’m right. Yes, I’m okay. I got this. I’m just going to do the next thing. I’m okay.

Amber Hawley 44:54
And isn’t it interesting how sometimes the simplest things can be so profound?

Dr. Jane Tornatore 44:58
Yes. And finding out more More and more Amber.

Amber Hawley 45:01
Yeah. And that’s that is like deaden. We’re getting in touch. We’re talking to our brain, but we’re getting in touch with our heart.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 45:09
Yes, we’re connecting our head and our heart. Yes.

Amber Hawley 45:14
telling you, I don’t know, I don’t know, I forget what your book cover looks like. But I think you’d need to take a picture with yourself, right? And be like, This is what I do. Well, if people wanted to find out more, and obviously stalk you online, where should they go?

Dr. Jane Tornatore 45:34
Well, they can, if they want to get my I have these things called love notes, which I finally realized, I don’t have to do it weekly, I don’t have to do it monthly, I’m going to put out a love note, which is just basically my ideas, resources, things that excite me, you know, any tools I write when I’m inspired. So it’s completely not a regular love note. But if they want to go to my website, they can everyday love.me, they can sign up for my love notes there. Or I have a little mini course on intuitive decision making on how we use our body to tap More into our heart and intuition to make decisions when we really don’t know what to do. Like we have all the data. And we just still can’t decide. So I’ve got this thing I call that intuitive decision making method. And they sign up. I’ll send them a little mini course.

Amber Hawley 46:28
Oh, I love that. That sounds fantastic. And I think it’s so helpful for all of you high achieving super smart people out there. Because, yeah, sometimes it’s like you said, it’s not we don’t need more data, we need a different vantage point. Right? Anyway, well, I just thank you so much, Shane, for coming on this was it was so awesome to reconnect. Because I, again, it’s just sometimes you meet people in life, and you’re like, Oh, I just really connect with that person, immediately. And you just it’s always there, right? So thank you so much. I know that this is going to be really helpful for people and all of the information, all of your information is gonna be in the show notes, including where they can pick up your book, because I think it’s fantastic. And thank you again for coming on.

Dr. Jane Tornatore 47:18
Thank you so much. It was an absolute delight.

Amber Hawley 47:22
So did you love this episode? Well, I would love to hear from you all about it. If you had a particular takeaway or something you found valuable, or frankly, if you just want to say hello, I would love to hear from you. So email me at hello at Amberhawley.com. And let me know what you’re thinking about the podcast when you’re thinking about live this episode, or you know, whatever’s on your mind. I would love to hear from you. And if you don’t feel like emailing me, you can always share this episode with your favorite bestie thanks so much for listening.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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