How to Make Changes to Improve Your Leadership Skills with Michael Diettrich Chastain

Amber Hawley [00:00:24]:
Welcome to season 4 of the My Biz Bestie Podcast. I'm Amber Hawley.

Melissa Hall [00:00:27]:
And I'm Melissa Hall.

Amber Hawley [00:00:29]:
Today we have two amazing women with us. We have Sandy Connery and Jenny Barcelos of Namastream.

Amber Hawley [00:00:36]:
Welcome, ladies.

Sandy [00:00:38]:
Hi, nice to be here.

Melissa Hall [00:00:39]:
So we're super excited about this interview because these are two biz besties who live in totally different countries and run a business together. So we are really excited to hear about this. And I think especially because you guys are basically a tech startup, which we usually associate with male business owners, and you're a female company, you're totally self-funded. So there's a lot of— and I think that you're self-funded related to being a female-owned company. So we're super excited to hear your story. And I think this will be a really encouraging episode for a lot of people who maybe are feeling like there are some roadblocks in their way, right? Because I think you have a great resilience story. So very excited to have you.

Sandy [00:01:24]:
Awesome.

Melissa Hall [00:01:25]:
Well, why don't you each first tell us a little bit about yourselves and then we'll talk about NamaStream and the podcast and all that good stuff. Sure.

Sandy [00:01:33]:
I'm Sandy. I live in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. I had an almost 20-year career being a clinical pedorthist in Canada. So I had a brick-and-mortar business. I saw clients who had lower limb injuries and we made custom foot orthoses and had footwear and footwear modifications. So I was very immersed in the clinical world and brick-and-mortar and staff. And retail and a lot of inventory. And then I decided one day to change careers and sold it and entered the world of software. And that is where I met Jenny.

Melissa Hall [00:02:06]:
Whoa, that's a big shift.

Amber Hawley [00:02:07]:
I know. I was like, wow.

Jenny [00:02:11]:
Yeah. And so I met Sandy. We were in an entrepreneurship program where we were learning how to build software companies and we are some of the only women. That's how we met each other. But I came into that world after having just had a baby, my first and only child. And I had been working as a human rights and environmental lawyer, teaching at a university, traveling to very far away, dangerous places, some of which were only reachable by a satellite phone. And I realized I needed to kind of switch what I was doing for a while for a few reasons, one of which is my husband said, if we're having a family, you can no longer go to these places and leave this child with me in case something happens to you. Um, and so another factor that went into that was just the work I was doing. I had been at a university and I was in the process of spinning my work into its own nonprofit with a friend of mine, my co-founder of, uh, of the nonprofit we ended up building. And I realized I was going out and fundraising from lots of people, primarily men who had worked in tech startups and then had money to give. And I realized rather than going out and having drinks with men and asking for money and donations, why don't I just, oh, make my own money. And this is, it seems like people make money by having a software company. That sounds like a good idea. So it was this really naive idea that I could essentially self-fund my human rights lawyering by starting a software company at the same time with a newborn baby.

Sandy [00:03:36]:
Because that's easy.

Jenny [00:03:37]:
That's easy. That's like that side project. That's easier.

Amber Hawley [00:03:40]:
You know, they sleep a lot. So you get like all that downtime.

Jenny [00:03:43]:
I did. I really did all of my work. For lot, for a at least a year during naps. Yeah. And bedtime.

Amber Hawley [00:03:50]:
That's amazing.

Jenny [00:03:51]:
Yeah.

Amber Hawley [00:03:52]:
I was, I was going to ask, you know, what made you decide to do the software thing, but you answered it. That is, I love that. I absolutely love it.

Jenny [00:04:00]:
Yeah. I was just like, why do you get to have all this money? Why do I have to go begging and justifying my life's work to you when I want to be the one that has the money and gets to decide where the money goes?

Amber Hawley [00:04:10]:
I love that idea. I love that. It's yeah. That awareness of that. And you're like, no, I'm just going to do that. That's what's going to happen.

Jenny [00:04:16]:
Yeah. Well, it was nice. very Naive. And in retrospect, like, it's not the smartest idea I've ever had, but, um, it's been a— it's been an adventure for sure.

Melissa Hall [00:04:26]:
I love it.

Amber Hawley [00:04:27]:
Yeah, I think naivete facilitates the best adventures. Like, I really do think that.

Melissa Hall [00:04:32]:
So for real, for real, like, in all areas of life. What made you flip that switch and think like, oh, I'm gonna switch from this successful brick-and-mortar business to software?

Sandy [00:04:44]:
It was just a classic case of burnout, and I just no longer was enjoying the work. I mean, I loved— I I really did love my staff and I enjoyed the interactions with the clients, but the shipping and the inventory and the people shopping in the US, and it was just a really, really hard— retail in Canada is very difficult. And I think like clinically, I had just— I could no longer talk about someone's painful big toe. Like I just didn't care anymore. And so that's a big sign for any other people in clinical. Like when you start not caring about the client's problems, it's time to go. I really wanted to create a business where I could be home for my son, that I didn't have a lease to pay. I didn't have staff to schedule. I didn't have so much money tied up in inventory. You know, I was looking at it from a much more personal and selfish way than what Jenny did, but I just wanted to create a business where I could work from home, that I could, you know, obviously use the internet and just, you know, have a good salary, a good life with so much more freedom and time in my day. And so I happened to hear a podcast about software, building software companies, and I was like, that is it. That is it. That is the business. The way I want to operate is that. And so also very naive about what it takes to build a software company, but I entered into this program, you know, with not with Jenny, but we did it independently and met Jenny along the way.

Melissa Hall [00:06:02]:
And I love, yeah, that you were both like, okay, for whatever, you know, your different reasons, I'm going to switch business models. It sounds like you're both kind of forward-thinking. So you're both like, okay, this seems like where it's at. Let me go for this. Let me get a program or join a program that will teach me how to do it. And then met one another. Can you talk a little bit about that experience of being in that program together and how you met and how you actually decided to have a company together?

Jenny [00:06:28]:
We met at a live event at a conference, and we were some of the only women again there. We were especially, I think, just two of a small handful of women who had built companies that already had paying customers within the first 6 months of starting. And so I think there was a level of mutual respect that like, oh yeah, Hey, like, you're cool too.

Amber Hawley [00:06:50]:
He's legit. Yeah.

Jenny [00:06:52]:
So there was that. But I actually— like, the actual way that we met each other was because I was upset and having an emotional breakdown about something in the hallway. And Sandy's very intuitive and she's a woman. And so, like, it's a sea of men. And I had just had a pretty devastating miscarriage and I was really struggling. And, you know, I'm in the sea of men, these like kind of like tech bro culture, you know, like this kind of seen. And then here's this like lovely, amazing, kind-hearted human being that comes over and it's like, hey, are you all right? We ended up talking and of course, you know, one thing led to another. We spent the whole rest of the conference together just getting to know each other. And I think walking away from that conference knowing that we still wanted to know each other, that there was some sort of, you know, kindred connection and someday we would do something together.

Amber Hawley [00:07:40]:
That's so great. That's— I mean, on so many levels, right? Just connecting on such a deeper level, but we talk to people often about going to live events and being open to meeting people. And like, there's that serendipitous moment, you just never know what can happen. And so I think that's fantastic. When you were leaving the conference, you spent the rest of the time together. Did you think, okay, this is somebody like you had a plan to keep in touch?

Sandy [00:08:06]:
For sure, we were going to keep in touch because women in software are rare breeds. And so we knew that we would absolutely connect outside that conference. We did not know that we were going to work together. I think that was a slow kind of build evolution over the weeks and months that came years after. In this program, Jenny built NamaStream, the software that we run together today, and I built another one, Connectable, for networking groups. And there are issues and there's like, what do I do and what should I do? And this— so we knew that we wanted to maintain contact so that we could go through this together. So we basically Zoomed I don't know, I think it was like almost every day right after— well, not maybe not quite, but it was very, very frequent that we would check in. And I watched Jenny become more stressed and more worried about the growth of her company. It's a good problem. But here she is with a young daughter sitting at her dining room table in Seattle trying to run this company. And it's just taking over her life. And I remember there was conversations where we would say— she would say, I just wish you could be part of Namastream. I do too. I mean, I just— I don't know how it could be like there's no way that it could pay a salary for me? And how would I give up, you know, shift things away from my other software? Like there's so many things. And then eventually Jenny got to a point because she's incredibly resourceful and has a big vision. She's like, I need help to run this. And she went and applied to a B2B tech accelerator in Seattle, got in on the condition that she adds a co-founder. And so that is when the really, we started talking about, you know, would you be interested? Would you want to do this? What would it look like? Once she accepted that, I became formally part of Namastream, her software.

Melissa Hall [00:09:47]:
Wow, that's really interesting. Did they tell you like why that was a condition to have a co-founder?

Jenny [00:09:54]:
Yeah, I mean, and it's, to be honest, it makes sense. It's really hard to run a software company by yourself. So it's really easy to start one by yourself and then to actually run one is almost impossible. It's really hard to do it on the small team that we have. So Yeah, I mean, they told me that I needed to have 2 co-founders. And so I sort of negotiated them down. I mean, I— well, that's a whole other story we have no time for today. But I mean, they said that we needed— they never accepted teams with less than 3 co-founders. And so I was like, oh, well, that's not going to happen because I don't have another Sandy. So that's like, that person doesn't exist. And so I— anyway, we tried to find a person and it didn't end up working out. So, yeah, I mean, I think I convinced them. I think in the tech space, especially in the startup space, which is where the accelerators operate, it's almost impossible to find a company that has any kind of revenue or profit early on. I mean, everyone is just trying to take this idea that they baked in their garage and try to get users using the tool, right? And we actually approached, I approached them with a company that was making money and I just didn't know how, I didn't have any idea what to do because I took a class that taught me how to start it, but there's no class that teaches you how to run it or grow it or manage it. And so I think that they were intrigued by the problem and then like, oh, wow, who is this? And maybe we can do something with this. And we have a really incredible mentor out of that process who ended up being our mentor in the accelerator for those 4 months. And he's, he's continued to be a huge supporter of ours and he's had successful exits out of his own companies. And so anyway, that process was invaluable, especially because it led me to opportunity to formally bring Sandy into the company.

Melissa Hall [00:11:38]:
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's great. It's more like serendipity, right? That it seems like it was working up to this and then there was that catalyst that made it happen. And I think it's really interesting that you already had the company and then Sandy came in. So maybe you, you guys can talk about, you know, what were any struggles or, you know, I'm sure there were no struggles with that whatsoever.

Sandy [00:11:59]:
No, I told you we don't have any.

Jenny [00:12:01]:
Yeah.

Sandy [00:12:02]:
Struggles at all.

Melissa Hall [00:12:03]:
Perfect transition.

Amber Hawley [00:12:05]:
My mind keeps going back to, I did everything during naps and made a profitable company. Oh my God, I was so lazy during all of my stardoms.

Sandy [00:12:15]:
That's how you do it if you're a mom and you've got a side hustle. So what the accelerator did was, you know, took Jenny out of the company because she was attending the 5-day-a-week sort of classes, if you will, about how to pitch and how to use PowerPoint and how to talk to an investor. And I ran the company. So it was sort of, you know, get thrown in and just do it. So I just started, there were no help docs first for Namastream. So I like, you know, screen by screen, button by button, I went through it, learned it inside out and wrote help docs for it. And that was like the best way to learn a software tool. And then I just like talk to clients and I just, I don't know, you just figure it out when you were thrown into a situation. I mean, Jenny was there, I could ask her questions, but I'd have sales calls with clients and they'd have questions that I couldn't answer. And then I just, either make up a really good one or get back to them after speaking with Jenny, and then you quickly learn it, right? And so, but honestly, we did not have troubles working together. I think that was, is, I'm really proud how we work together and how instantly we just meshed. And it was, you know, I think maybe I honestly, it's quite amazing what has happened. And even still, like, we don't fight. We don't, I don't know. I think our communication is really, really good. And if I have a, like, Jenny, I'm not going to do this for you. She's like, okay, I know, I know. And I say just it. To her, super honest if I'm uncomfortable with something, and, and vice versa, right? It doesn't just go from me to Jenny. And so it's, it's really quite magical. I think our relationship, it's really special. And, you know, besides each of our marriages, I think that what we have is incredibly important to both of us.

Amber Hawley [00:13:50]:
That's so wonderful. And we— I I mean, think that's the reason we started this podcast, is Melissa and I saw the value in having that business support system, and, and especially having that biz bestie who's there, who gives you that emotional support, but also, you know, when you're building a company together, having that where you feel like you can be really real in your feedback and challenge each other and not have it be, you know, a problem, but really that open communication, I think, is huge. So it's so nice to hear stories, you know, because sometimes we, we don't hear positive stories about female friendships. And so to hear all of these people talking about how they navigate that and what a great support it is to them, I think it's just important for women to hear that.

Melissa Hall [00:14:35]:
And I think it really goes to Jenny, what you were talking about when you first met, that there was this mutual respect, right? It sounds like you both initially recognized that you each have strengths and you each know what you're doing and can trust one another. So I would imagine that when you built this, this official partnership, that it was a lot of mutual trust, that you each know what you're doing and you each know when you need to ask for help too.

Jenny [00:15:01]:
Yeah, and I'll say too, we've had— we've tried to bring other people into the company in a more formal way and it's not worked. And so it's not like— I mean, there is actually something really magical in our connection with each other. And I think it was just like Sandy described in our story. It was built over weeks and then ultimately years of helping each other in our separate companies and really seeing how the other person operated. And, you know, I think at this point, We lift each other up. There are a lot of ups and downs that come with growing a business, especially a tech company. And having this partnership allows us to take turns being sort of the one that falls apart or the one that's more vulnerable or the one that just can't take whatever's going on in that particular moment, or to be able to take breaks for whatever we need to that's going on in our lives or with our kids, right? So like we can sort of take sort of breaks. The other person just carries the load, more of the load. And there's that sense of accountability to one another. So if Sandy's having a really hard time, I'm going to do everything I can to jump in and alleviate whatever I can off her plate and vice versa. And it's just because I think because we care deeply about each other, we also care deeply about this, this entity that we've created together, like this platform, this community of students and teachers and that has a life of its own that we're both, I think, equally accountable to.

Melissa Hall [00:16:19]:
Can you talk a little bit more about like how the two of you communicate? And how do you keep, you know, having a business together and running like a whole team and all of that? How do you continue having that emotional support, like where you can talk to one another about personal stuff, but also make sure that's not, you know, like infiltrating business meetings when you need to totally infiltrate?

Jenny [00:16:41]:
There's no separation. We don't do that. That's why, that's why other people don't join. I mean, that's why like no one— that's why. Yeah. I mean, because we're, We have our own language with each other. I mean, it's just sort of, there's no separation. And I think it's great if some people can have that, but we don't have that. Like, we're just, this is who we are. It's like whatever's going on in our lives, in our day, business, not business, kids, husbands, whatever, it's all on the table.

Amber Hawley [00:17:07]:
That makes me feel so much better because we interview so many people and they're so like really good about keeping that, whereas Melissa and I are absolutely not.

Jenny [00:17:15]:
No boundaries, zero boundaries. I'll be like, Sandy, what do you think of this caftan I'm looking at? She's like, you can't wear that. You're going to look like an old Italian woman and it's going to be hideous and you might as well get mules. You know, it's just like this, like, and I, I messaged her that in the same Slack channel that I would message her like a bug that we just found. I mean, that's actually a real example.

Sandy [00:17:41]:
Oh my God, Jenny. So we should explain that when we work, we just turn on Zoom, like we are all on right now, and we're hours on Zoom, and we will be talking back and forth about life and what happened and my son's guitar recital that just happened, and then we will jump to a customer question, and then we'll jump back to Jenny's wardrobe, and then we'll, you know, we go back and forth everywhere. So we spend many hours in a day in Zoom. And then we also have Slack, as she said, and it's like Jenny wants to create a graphic novel out of our Slack.

Jenny [00:18:12]:
A memoir of our Slack channel. I think it would be the most fascinating thing because it's so random, but it actually is like a diary of modern life. I mean, like, it's, I don't know, I think there's profound beauty and in interestingness there. But it's also very like, there's like personal things that you don't want to read.

Amber Hawley [00:18:32]:
I was like, I personally would read that. So I think you should head on over to Apple right now. Yes, exactly.

Sandy [00:18:39]:
Oh my God.

Jenny [00:18:40]:
Especially if you could get the GIFs somehow, like in a paperback to work.

Amber Hawley [00:18:44]:
Nice. Yeah, that would be so cool.

Melissa Hall [00:18:46]:
You could have a flipbook version too.

Amber Hawley [00:18:48]:
Yeah.

Jenny [00:18:48]:
Yeah.

Sandy [00:18:49]:
The only formal thing that we make sure that we do business-wise is at the end of the month, we run through our numbers. We spend like an hour, we have a massive spreadsheet and we just go bang, bang, bang, bang through everything. So we make sure we know you know, that, what, what's going on. But other than that, it is just sort of what do we need to do today? It's off the cuff. It's real. And uh, it's, it's real life.

Melissa Hall [00:19:09]:
Well, it's like what you would do if you were physically together in an office.

Sandy [00:19:12]:
I know, I often think about that. Yeah, it would be because I think about when I had my stores and how much I would just hang out in some of my colleagues' offices and just sit there and chat and avoid whatever I had to do. And it's very much like that. Those side conversations are going to happen whether it's online or in real life, for sure.

Amber Hawley [00:19:31]:
Yes, and that actually is something that happens no matter what. So you have to build that into your day. And a lot of people don't do that when they're working like from home or online remotely, and they feel guilty about having those times. And it's like, well, you need to do that. Productivity tells you you need breaks. So you either take it or it's going to happen anyway. So I love the Zoom idea though, of just hanging out as if you're together and then just kind of checking in about random things. That fits my heart big time.

Melissa Hall [00:20:03]:
I know. I know. And it's funny because like we said, like Amber said, it's unusual. Most people are like, oh, well, we set up this meeting or we have this regular meeting, which is awesome because it's working, you know, but like whatever is working for you.

Sandy [00:20:16]:
But I think too, part of this just may be that it's the nature of software that we get thrown curveballs every single day. Like, I— we couldn't plan meetings, you know, like Monday we do this, Tuesday it does not work like this. Like, you might— a bug might come up and you've got to like deal with it and support questions and oversee the devs. And then Tuesday might be dead calm and quiet and we can focus on our podcast. Like, we don't know what our day is going to— what, you know, we might get a couple of new clients and they've got new questions and your whole day is spent helping them. Like, you can't plan it. Like, even if we wanted to run, you know, really structured and organized and scheduled, we'd be constantly rescheduling everything, I think. And I don't like to work like that anyway.

Amber Hawley [00:20:54]:
Yeah. I mean, I live in Silicon Valley and before becoming a therapist, I actually worked in the dot-com world. So I worked at a software company And just thinking about how big that team was and how we were there, it felt like you'd stay until midnight, you know, when things were happening or problems were happening. It's just like everyone stayed and everyone worked. So I can't imagine, you know, doing it. I know you have a team, but the two of you, it would be hard to have a superstructure.

Jenny [00:21:20]:
Yeah. And we do have lots of late nights. I mean, not— it depends. Everything depends on the software, like how happy we are, how well adjusted we are. How good of a mom I am on a given week or day is all relative to whether there's a bug because it just derails everything. Like I had a Thanksgiving, oh my God, 2 years ago that was like epic. Like I did not, we had just moved into this house I'm in now on an island and I was working off of a desk that was an upside down cardboard box the entire day and night of Thanksgiving. And that's what you do when this is the kind of business you have. Right. But then there's also weeks, months of relative, like, we run a software company. We don't have to, you know, like everything's good. It's not broken. So it's great. And you build the systems in so that you don't have a ton of— well, we always have, but it's not the same as if we're like directly like coaching someone or consulting with someone. I mean, it's really a different beast. So, wow.

Amber Hawley [00:22:19]:
So basically during like cold and flu season, you guys have lots of bugs in your software, like puking, then you have bugs. Is that the— That's exactly right.

Sandy [00:22:28]:
That's exactly how it works.

Amber Hawley [00:22:30]:
Well, can you share with our listeners what is Namastream? Can you give us— just kind of tell us what the software does? I'm dying to know.

Jenny [00:22:37]:
Yeah. So it's a tool. It's a— it's an online learning platform that allows primarily people in the wellness industry to teach online so they can create memberships, create courses, do livestream programs, whether that's a broadcast or collaborative session or a private session, to build those live events into existing courses or memberships. It's really, we have a waiver built in. It's, we developed our tool, the name Namastream might reflect that we developed it for the yoga industry, but now we're wellness more broadly. And we do have other people using our tool as well, but we really focus on wellness folks.

Melissa Hall [00:23:14]:
Yeah, I know I was checking it out for sure. As a membership site owner, I'm always like, oh, what can this program do?

Amber Hawley [00:23:21]:
Although the key for Melissa would be if it runs on WordPress. Oh, it gets very stressful.

Melissa Hall [00:23:28]:
Well, the key is like, do I have to go into WordPress and make that, or is it already set up for me?

Sandy [00:23:34]:
Yeah, nothing to do with WordPress.

Jenny [00:23:36]:
It's really simple. I mean, we designed it for people who are non-technical for the most part, so that's a big part of it. Looks really easy from the outside, which means it's really complicated for us on the back side, but the whole idea is to have people that are, are not at all fluent in technology to be able within minutes to take their content and put it into a product for sale on the internet.

Melissa Hall [00:23:58]:
Yeah, I love that. And that's a difficult— I know because my current software is not set up that way. That's a difficult thing to do. Have your roles in the company changed since that, you know, initial transition? Like, what does that look like now as far as like managing the team? And do you have specific roles like where you each do— are each doing specific things?

Jenny [00:24:21]:
Yeah, I mean, we share a lot of responsibility and we trade off a bit. It, but there are certain things that I always do and certain things that Sandy always does. So I would say it's not that different though since we started, we kind of figured out what we're good at, right?

Sandy [00:24:36]:
And so I know nothing about US taxes. Jenny has to do all that.

Jenny [00:24:41]:
I do all the— like anything to.

Sandy [00:24:42]:
Do with the American stuff, I don't touch.

Jenny [00:24:44]:
Legal, financial things, which is terrible, but I would do it because it's worth it.

Sandy [00:24:49]:
And you have no choice because I can't do it.

Jenny [00:24:52]:
Yeah. And like just even things about Sandy's more of an extrovert than me. I'm really introverted, so she does a lot of the external communication. And then I'm like the oldest millennial, but I'm such a millennial, like chat, like anyone wants to live chat with me in any way or like text, I'm on it, but I can't stand to talk to anyone on the phone or even email feels oppressive. So I do a lot of like any kind of chat body activities. We just figure out what we're good at and I'm terrible at like customer support. I try to pop in there when Sandy's overextended and deal with issues, but I get really emotionally taxed by people having a hard time with anything. So we've learned that. Yeah.

Sandy [00:25:38]:
You know, it's like if anyone, you know, any HR person kind of dropped in into our company, they'd be like, what the hell are you two doing? Because it doesn't make any sense the way that we operate. But I think we know each other so well that by my Slack messages, Jenny can go, oh my God, Sandy's losing isn't it? Let me take over. And she'll go into the help and support and deal with it and I.

Jenny [00:25:57]:
Can take a break.

Sandy [00:25:57]:
And then sometimes, you know, it feels like we just honestly— I have a border collie and my whole world is like functions or is focused on managing his energy. And then so with Jenny and I, we each manage each other's emotional state. And if I'm like crying and upset because somebody can't understand what I'm trying to tell them, which I realize is really my fault in communication, but Jenny's like, it's okay, Sandy. And she'll just like step in and do it. And it's not like, that's your role. You fix that. That is your job. You know, like that's how, I don't know, to me, traditional corporate, or I would do that at the store in my old life. Like, that's not my job. It's your job. And we don't have that boundary. Like, this box is yours and this box is mine. It's like, what do you need?

Amber Hawley [00:26:36]:
Who?

Sandy [00:26:36]:
How are we feeling today? Who needs what? And I know, and I'll have an excellent day in the help box and then the inbox. And then the next day I'd be like, oh my God, I can't, I can't answer this question one more time. And Jenny's in there, you know, and that's like this bouncing back and forth. It is this, it's like fluid, like we're almost like one person in some way. And when it comes to like software software the or sorry, the, like the features and dealing with the devs and, you know, looking forward into the software. I think we both, Jenny has a bit better understanding on the tech side than I do, but it's really collaborative of hours in Zoom talking about what we want and what it looks like and, you know, communicating. We both meet with our dev team pretty much weekly. And so we're in on those conversations. It's not just all her territory. So it is this really mesh. Like, I don't, I don't even know how it works. I don't know.

Jenny [00:27:22]:
Some people would call it inefficient.

Amber Hawley [00:27:24]:
Yeah.

Jenny [00:27:25]:
I choose not to use that. I don't think so, because I don't want to have to do all the communications with our dev team and then have to relay stuff to Sandy. It's better if she just hears what they say because she's the person, if something's broken or somebody is waiting on a new feature to be finished, like then Sandy just knows what to say to them and I don't have to relay it. Versus when we're building out a new suite of features, I'm often going and looking at what's available. How should we build this? What language should we use? How will it connect to what we have? You know, that kind of stuff. Versus Sandy's really in the mind of our users. And um, so, we— you need both of that in my mind. And then we also have a project manager, and so like she like helps to, to reel us in, right? And and then, then we have the devs. And so it's, it's it's a, a a lot, lot of people doing the same thing seemingly, but it's, it's different. It's nuanced.

Amber Hawley [00:28:12]:
It sounds like it. I mean, it sounds really special, like you guys found your, your biz bestie soulmate, which we have never said before. So that's very special to me, but it's But that does make sense. Like you're saying, there are those, like you're each holding those nuanced parts, but they all collaborate together. So I think that's fantastic.

Melissa Hall [00:28:32]:
Oh, and it sounds like it's wonderful with that relationship to then have a project manager who's like, okay, have someone manage.

Jenny [00:28:39]:
She doesn't have the emotional stuff that we have. She's just like curious and to the point. She's all business.

Amber Hawley [00:28:47]:
Yeah.

Jenny [00:28:47]:
Which we're not.

Amber Hawley [00:28:48]:
So it's— Melissa has often said that when when we can get to the point where we can afford a handler, like absolutely we want one. Because unfortunately, we're, we're very similar in many ways. So we need someone to kind of reel us in and bring us down. So I love that idea. I'm wondering, do you have any advice for women out there who are thinking about starting a software company? Or just maybe— I think there are probably a lot of women who are like, I can't even imagine like how to do that.

Jenny [00:29:17]:
Yeah, well, I would say do it absolutely because the world needs you to do it. So you have— if you feel an inkling or a calling in any way, I feel like you have an obligation to pursue that because the world that we're living into is being created and defined by these kinds of companies. That's just the role they're playing in our culture. Technology is, I I would, would say, probably the biggest currency of power in our world today. So I feel like you have an obligation to do it if you feel the calling. I would also say there are tremendous communities of female founders that have popped up since we were— since we started. And we're in a lot of different communities, whether it's Facebook groups or Slack groups. I've got connections to other women doing this. There are not very many women. And so you like automatically have a community of support. So if we're looking to hire someone or trying to understand something about taxes or whatever, I can go to 5 different places right now and post something and The generosity of, of other women to come in and just pro bono offer advice or leads is there, including women who run $20+ million companies will talk to women who are just starting or women like me who run smaller companies. So just know that those communities are there and it's a really amazing time to be a woman in tech.

Melissa Hall [00:30:35]:
I really like that reframe.

Sandy [00:30:36]:
I would just add to that, if actually to anybody who's starting a software company, is to really think about who writes the code, who is that technical person that if assuming that you yourself cannot write the code, I think it's so much easier if you have a trusted partner alongside you to, to write the code. And so that would look like in most cases a CTO. And in my other company, I have that my business partner is the one who who wrote, wrote it. And it's just a lot easier when they're part of your company and you trust them.

Amber Hawley [00:31:09]:
I could see that. Absolutely. You know, for sure, putting your trust— I mean, even, even without a software company, having a few businesses, I have a brick-and-mortar and online business, and all those times you hire people to outsource the things that just aren't your wheelhouse. And, you know, a lot of times it can go really wrong, and it's— and I think it's devastating for people. So really being secure in that person, because that is the, the foundation, right, of everything for you.

Sandy [00:31:36]:
The software. It's really, I mean, it's the asset, right? If you don't have it or access to it in some cases, then you're in real trouble. So just really think through like, who is that person that you want to build it? You know, how do you maintain access to it? What happens if that person leaves? And so I think ideally I would want to partner with that person if, if the, you know, if the trust is there, if it's right.

Melissa Hall [00:31:56]:
One thing I was thinking about too with your story is that both of you, it sounds like you've created companies that meet a need in a realm where you were like, this isn't available yet. And, you know, you're solving a real problem for certain communities. And yet you both started these companies thinking like, I need revenue, or I, you know, want to start a tech company, like I want to get into the software thing. And I think a lot of times women are not as willing to do that, right? We think like, oh, well, we have to do it, you know, on this more emotional basis, or we have to, you know, do something that's super meaningful. And we don't think, oh, hey, I want to start a software company because this is where it's at. And then I will find this problem and I can help all kinds of communities with the software. But I also think it's really cool that you were like, you know what, I want to start a software company. Let me figure out how to do this thing.

Jenny [00:32:48]:
Yeah. Well, we both believe that you should start a company where there's a need in the market. And if there had not been a need to create Namastream, I wouldn't have built it. It was built out of the real need of certain yoga studios that I had interviewed during the course of figuring out what kind of software company to build. I mean, it's now taken on a life of its own, but you know, I want to say something Seth Godin once said, which is that you don't necessarily have to make your money from the thing that brings you meaning. And it means a lot to me because before I had this company, I felt like I had to be extremely successful financially in my career. And as a lawyer doing human rights or public service work, like that's not a very lucrative I mean, it's lucrative in a lot. It's very, it's an amazing career, but it doesn't make a lot of money. And so that distinction for me allowed me to say, like, I can do this work in the world and it doesn't need to be what supports me and my family financially. And that's okay. And now I'm in a position where I can take on more of that work, more of that sort of human rights and environmental work because I have this company. And that was the goal for me, right? Is so that I don't have to put all of that pressure on one way of working to support me in all ways. Like, I don't have to get my passion and my happiness and my meaning and my money all from the same thing. So I just would encourage you to think about how you can add in diverse elements of work into your life.

Amber Hawley [00:34:11]:
I love that. And I think that's kind of where Melissa was going is that Seth— I remember that quote by Seth Godin as well. And I think it is very freeing, you know, as somebody who lived in Silicon Valley, during the first crash in like the '90s, late '90s, it's like you realize, hey, you need to have multiple streams of income. Like you need to cover bases. And yes, like you want to do something that fulfills you and that you love and you have energy from, but it's also okay to just have something that gives you security. And hopefully you still, you know, really enjoy it, of course. But I think that that is such a great message. So I'm sure that's going to be helpful for someone to hear that and kind of rethink how they're approaching their business. So one last question, well, my last question I should say, is I'm wondering, do you guys ever get together in real life and get to hang out and kind of GSD as we say, we get stuff done, it's the PG version.

Sandy [00:35:06]:
Yeah, not enough. Usually a couple times a year, we try to do one conference together, and then we usually try to come to one of our own homes in a year. Yeah, it depends. It's, it's, I don't know why it feels so much harder than it really should be. Jenny was here in March in Calgary, froze her ass off and loved every second of it, didn't you?

Jenny [00:35:28]:
But then you were in LA.

Sandy [00:35:29]:
And then we were in LA. Yeah, that was so much better.

Jenny [00:35:32]:
Yeah.

Sandy [00:35:32]:
So usually about 2 to 3 times a year we try very hard and there is absolutely something different than working together in a space versus Zoom. Like we We try to pretend that it's not, but we are so much more productive when we are— just different ideas flow when we are together working. So it's really amazing to see the difference. But yeah, we need to make more of an effort to make that happen.

Amber Hawley [00:35:55]:
We're strong believers in that. Melissa and I try to get together at least once a quarter, and we say the exact same thing. Like, we'll spend— sometimes we'll go rent a hotel room and we just end up working, you know, like 14, 15 hours a day, but it doesn't feel like work because we're just really riffing off each other and there's a different flow of energy and we get so much done in that time. So we're strong believers of that. So I know it's, it's a fantastic thing. But yes, maybe, maybe somewhere warmer.

Jenny [00:36:23]:
Yes.

Sandy [00:36:23]:
And you know what? Sometimes we just need like photos of us together doing stuff other than like screenshots, screenshots of Zoom. Like, oh my God, that's all we have. That's the only way we interact is Zoom and it doesn't work on social. So for that reason, alone, we need to make more of an effort, I think.

Amber Hawley [00:36:37]:
Yes, yes.

Melissa Hall [00:36:38]:
Yeah, and this is why Amber and I need a handler, because we need someone to schedule that person to take those photos when we're together.

Sandy [00:36:44]:
Right. That's.

Amber Hawley [00:36:46]:
Although allegedly you scheduled ours for April because we're going to an, uh, a female entrepreneur event, and allegedly we're getting our headshots taken. We have the same issue. Awesome.

Melissa Hall [00:36:57]:
Well, anything else that you want to add, either as encouragement or any wise words that you like to give our listeners before we finish up here?

Jenny [00:37:07]:
Have grace with yourself and your business and what you're building, and things take time. I mean, that's one of the big tenets that we teach our customers, our clients, is pay attention to the long game. I mean, we, by traditional startup measures of success, you know, we're years into this company and we're not a unicorn billion-dollar startup. So by, by certain standards, we're a failure, but by our standards of building a successful company that's growing significantly every year and we're happy and it allows us to do the things in our lives that we want to do, we're extremely happy with the rate of growth that we have. And so I I just, just would say early on, I got really confused about what success meant and allowing myself to be defined by other metrics. And yeah, pay attention to the long game and have grace for where you're at.

Sandy [00:37:56]:
And I would just add, aim high, like, don't, you know, charge what you're worth, expect to be paid in full. And I think there's a lot of like love and light. And, you know, to me, I sometimes I want to say, let's get down to business and just make sure your pricing is right and aim high. There's nothing wrong with, with creating a business that, you know, has large revenue. I mean, that's like Jenny said, it's not all about that. I see a lot of people who are afraid to even reach for that. And I just want to say, just go for it.

Amber Hawley [00:38:25]:
I think that's fantastic. I you think, know, being that most of our listeners are women, that is something that I think a lot of women struggle with is feeling like, oh, that's too big a dream, or, you know, who am I to try to go that far? So I love that. I think that's a wonderful takeaway, both of them. So thank you so much for joining us today and sharing everything with our listeners. I think they're gonna love this episode.

Sandy [00:38:51]:
Thank you.

Melissa Hall [00:38:52]:
I know, I feel like we could chat for another like few hours for sure, because I'm like, I have more questions.

Amber Hawley [00:38:58]:
If only you could just, yeah, continue to inspire me. I'm getting all excited.

Melissa Hall [00:39:02]:
I know, I know. What's our software company name? We got to start another one.

Amber Hawley [00:39:08]:
You know, we're gonna be on Zoom after this talking about what our software company is.

Sandy [00:39:13]:
Maybe we should find a good developer. That's all I have to say.

Melissa Hall [00:39:17]:
But where, where can people find out more about you? And you also have a podcast. So how can people check, check you guys out?

Sandy [00:39:24]:
Sure. So our main hub on the internet is Soulful.mba. From there, you can find a link to NOMStream, the software, and our podcast, which is also Soulful MBA Podcast. So that's probably the best place to start. And then, of course, we're on Instagram all the time as well, Soulful MBA.

Jenny [00:39:39]:
And I'll just say, too, if you're a wellness practitioner and you're interested in teaching online, you can take a free masterclass with us on demand at Soulful.mba. Soulful.mba/themasterclass. So it walks through, it's not just, I mean, of course it's a webinar, so there is a pitch, but it walks through some real lessons that we use to teach our clients how to be successful with building online courses and membership sites and livestream programs. So you're welcome to come in and take the class.

Melissa Hall [00:40:05]:
Awesome. Thank you. So definitely go check it out. And this was such a great episode and I think it's so encouraging for other women business owners to hear. So if you know someone who needs to hear this message, so please share this episode with them.