How to Create a Community with Purpose with Pat Flynn

00:00:24 - Maelisa Hall
Welcome to season four of the My Biz Bestie podcast. I'm Melissa Hall.

00:00:27 - Amber Hawley
And I'm Amber Hawley.

00:00:29 - Maelisa Hall
And today we have another epic guest. We are super excited to have the one, the only... Hey, what's up?

00:00:40 - Pat Flynn
Hey, what's up? Hi, Melissa. Hi, Amber.

00:00:41 - Maelisa Hall
Hi. I feel like I channeled a little bit of Lewis Howes there because that's how he always introduces everybody. Everybody is the one, the only.

00:00:52 - Pat Flynn
Nobody's like me. Nobody's like you. Nobody's like any of the listeners. We're all unique.

00:00:56 - Amber Hawley
It's what makes us awesome. It's true. It is very exciting for us, though, to have the OG. You were my first... podcast, consistent person I listened to.

00:01:05 - Pat Flynn
I'm OG at this point. Wow.

00:01:07 - Amber Hawley
You're my OG.

00:01:08 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, it's true. No, totally. I always say that Pat saved my commute because I was commuting an hour and a half each way to and from work. So it was like three hours a day and it was in horrible traffic and it was not fun. However, when I would listen to Smart Passive Income...
then sometimes I would be disappointed or I'd be like, Oh, sweet. I got to listen to two episodes. I'm glad it took me an hour and a half today.

00:01:35 - Pat Flynn
That's so cool. Thank you.

00:01:37 - Amber Hawley
I was going to say, first of all, even though we won't be showing video, Melissa, I'm disappointed that you're not wearing your Ask Pat shirt.

00:01:42 - Pat Flynn
I know. I'm wearing the Ask Pat shirt.

00:01:45 - Amber Hawley
Oh, yeah. See, at least you represent. It's super comfy too.

00:01:50 - Pat Flynn
Thank you. It is. And that's why I wear it. I don't wear it because I just want to tell everybody my name. Like... Although I've been to the gym before with it and people go, ask Pat, what's that? And I go, it's... I'm Pat.

00:02:01 - Maelisa Hall
You're like a team.

00:02:02 - Pat Flynn
They're like, what do you want me to ask you then? And I'm like, no, it's my pod... It's my... And then I just go, just go.

00:02:09 - Amber Hawley
You should tell them, ask me anything. I'm just here to answer questions, random questions about random things.

00:02:15 - Pat Flynn
Well, you know, I use ConvertKit, right? And then there's a t-shirt that they give to people who use their service call that says like, teacher. Everything, you know, and I've been like. I was at Disneyland not too long ago. And I was getting ice cream for my kids.
And the woman who was serving ice cream was like, So what can you teach me? And I was like, Huh, this is a random question, but I look at my shirt, says, Teach everything, you know, and I was like, I literally was like, Do you want to start a podcast?
And she's like, No, there's more customers, please leave.

00:02:44 - Amber Hawley
Apparently not what she was wanting to learn that.

00:02:47 - Pat Flynn
No, no, maybe I don't know.

00:02:50 - Maelisa Hall
Yes. I'm totally seeing, Pat, like potentially you could have like a booth setup. If you ever want to promote Ask Pat a little bit more. Like the Lucy... Small time strategy. Yeah. A little Ask Pat booth and then just have people come up and ask you questions.

00:03:04 - Pat Flynn
Right.

00:03:05 - Maelisa Hall
A bus tour.

00:03:06 - Pat Flynn
That's a Charlie Brown thing, right?

00:03:07 - Amber Hawley
Yes. You could be Lucy with your five cents and you... I mean, it would be higher than five cents, but... 10 maybe. And yeah, inflation. But for those of you who don't know who Pat Flynn is, which I'm pretty sure everyone does, because we've talked about you many times being that we fangirl so hard.
Pat Flynn is... He has the Smart Passive Income podcast and the Ask Pat podcast, as you already said.

00:03:30 - Pat Flynn
First of all, if you're listening to this and you don't know who I am, that's awesome. I love that because I love introducing myself to new people because that means there's more people that I could potentially help. And that's why I'm here. I started out as an architect...
interestingly enough, and I got laid off in 2008, which was very tough because I was in my dream job and I got that taken away from me. I had just proposed to my girlfriend and we were about to get married and then I lost my job. It was a really tough time.
But to fast forward several months later, I had actually taken some knowledge I had about an exam that I took in the architecture industry, put that knowledge on a website, started to create some study guides and selling them. And it actually took off way better than I thought it was going to.
It actually launched in October of 2008. And in that first month after releasing my book, I was making two and a half times more than I was when I was in architecture. And it was funny because I don't know if even you guys know about this, but even...

Several months later after making $10,000, $15,000, $25,000 a month with that business, I was still looking for an architecture job. I did not. I was still going out for job interviews because I was just so tied to the five years of education I had and what my parents put me through school and what I had learned.
And I loved architecture. I missed it. But I remember it was several months later, I got a call on my phone from the boss who had let me go. And he actually offered me a new position at a new firm that he created. He brought some of my co-workers with him.
And he even offered me a year's rent to move back to the area for free. And it didn't take me more than a couple seconds just to go, thanks, but no thanks and click. I wasn't quite that rude. That's kind of rude if somebody offers you that.

00:05:02 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, that's totally how I see it going down.

00:05:05 - Pat Flynn
I politely declined and I just sat back and I was like, wow, I cannot believe I said no to this opportunity. What does that mean? that I just so reacted in that way so quickly. It just meant that I knew I was on a new path as an entrepreneur now. And I then started to build a website called smartpassiveincome.
com, which is where most people know me from now, where I decided to just share anything and everything I had learned about what I had done online to build this business because nobody was talking about it in full disclosure of just everything that happens, wins, fails, how much money they were making, things they would have done differently, the hard things, the great things.
I just wanted to share it all. And that website started to blow up because it was just apparently... very different than other websites that were out there teaching entrepreneurship, which were very often, hey, we have all the secrets to success, but you have to pay like $5,000 to get the secrets.

I was just like, there's no reason for me to keep any of this. I need to share this with as many people as possible because I don't want people to have to go through the hardships I did to realize that these opportunities are in front of all of us to create a business and take some knowledge we have and share and serve others with it.
So that website took off and now I have books and I speak around the world and I have a podcast, several... And we just passed 60 million downloads, by the way, which is just insane.

00:06:14 - Amber Hawley
Wow.

00:06:15 - Pat Flynn
It's unbelievable. And so now... And I'm at the point now where the other day, I was at Starbucks. I'm putting in my order for a grande hot blonde Americano. And as I'm ordering, the person behind me goes, Are you Pat Flynn? I recognized your voice.

00:06:29 - Maelisa Hall
And I was just like, What?

00:06:31 - Pat Flynn
This is insane. Because people listen to the show and currently my artwork on my podcast is just half of my face. They recognize me for my voice. It's just kind of insane what happens when you put yourself out there and you help others. And I'm doing even more things now.
And so what I do on Smart Passive Income now is I actually build businesses publicly and I just share every bit of the process. And currently, the most recent project is my first time getting into physical products. And so my videographer and I, we found this need in the video space and we invented something together And we've worked very long and hard on it.
And it's been just a whirlwind of a process. Learned a lot. And we just launched it on Kickstarter not too long ago. And it's doing pretty good. It's doing pretty well. I don't know if you guys have seen, but...

00:07:12 - Maelisa Hall
It's doing amazingly. How much did it... When did you meet your goal? In a couple hours or something?

00:07:18 - Pat Flynn
We set a funny goal of $100,000 because these physical products need quite a bit of money up front to create the molds to then manufacture these products. Again, all the stuff I never even knew about. So $100,000 was the funding goal. And we reached that in 11 hours and 26 minutes, which meant we had 59 days and a half or 59 and a half days left of the campaign.
And now it's currently over $305,000. And we're already talking about packaging and we're talking to retail. Retailers are coming to us like, how can we get this in the stores once it gets off a Kickstarter? And we're just like, we were like nobodies in this space two weeks ago.
And here we are getting asked by all these photography companies to want to work with us. It's just insane. The opportunities are there. It's just I've learned through the 10 years of doing this that every single time a success has happened, it's always been preceded with loads of hard work, a ton of consistency, a lot of failures, a lot of research.

The overnight success thing is a myth. There's no such thing. I truly believe that.

00:08:16 - Amber Hawley
And I think that's what I really love. I mean, what I loved about the podcast is the transparency. And I think that really is so good because I mean, the reason we did this podcast is there are so many ups and downs as entrepreneurs and it, And it's hard to weather that, especially if you feel like you're all by yourself in it.
And so being able... For me, before having that support structure of my biz bestie and my friends, having podcasts to listen to where they normalize what you're feeling and the struggles you're seeing... Because like you said, if all you're comparing is yourself against these pictures of like, Oh, look, I did it all and it happened effortlessly and...
And you're like, well, wait, that's not happening for me. So I must be doing something wrong. I think that's what's so refreshing and why so many people love the podcast and your approach to things.

I think that's huge.

00:09:09 - Pat Flynn
Thank you. Yeah. And I think my favorite part about the podcast specifically is just what it's done to bring people together. here I am in my home office recording on a single microphone by myself, yet in some way, shape or form, it allows for people to find each other because they have the sense that they are all kind of in this together.
And this is why I call my community Team Flint. I'm the team captain, but we're all a team. We're all in this together. So let's come together and support each other. And sometimes I'm going to pass the ball to you to score a goal. And then sometimes you're going to pass it back to me.
It doesn't really matter. We're all on the same team. And that's been really fun to kind of see the community grow and see people meeting each other. I get tweets and Instagram messages every once in a while, just randomly. Hey, look who I met. I saw this person at a meetup for something and he said he listened to you.
And then we bonded because we both listened to your podcast.

I'm just like, what? You guys didn't even know each other half a day ago. And now you're like best friends because you listen to my show. And that's so interesting and so cool. And so I talk a lot about on stage and in books and on my website and on the podcast about the importance of community because that's really where success happens with companies these days.
It's more than just the product or the service. It's finding other people who are like you and having other people who are in the same boat as you to riff off of, to get inspired by, to learn from, to teach. That all elevates the brand when you really build for that community.
I think it's so important.

00:10:35 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. It's interesting because I had that sense When I found your podcast, which just like Amber, it was one of the first business podcast... It was the first business podcast I listened to consistently every week and knew when an episode was going to come out and went back.
And I don't know, I think you were around 200 or something. No, no, you were... I don't know. But I listened to like... I had three hours a day. So I listened to like 200 podcasts. You had a lot of time. But I felt that sense of community just listening to the podcast.
And I even think we were just talking about the Ask Pat t-shirt that you're wearing. And when you started Ask Pat, and I was listening to that one, and I remember... I can picture it. I was in the parking garage. I was almost to work and listening to Ask Pat.
And then my question came up and you answered my question.

And I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm going to get a t-shirt now. This is so cool. And I was like... It felt like you were like... You had this in, right? Like this little... this part of it. And I'm curious, this was before I had met a bunch of people. It wasn't like I had gone to a meetup that you had done.
I hadn't met you. And yet I already felt that sense of community. So I'm curious, what do you think has contributed to that? And maybe what have you purposefully done to create that?

00:11:55 - Pat Flynn
Yeah. I mean, when I started my business, I wasn't like, all right, I'm going to create this amazing supportive community. I didn't have that plan. And if I was smarter, I probably would have had a plan. But always, the idea has been a couple of things.
Number one, serve first has been a mantra of mine. Do what I can more than anything before money is the motive. the first motive, primary motive should be serving first. So that means understanding what it is my audience is going through and what it is that they need help with and how can I better serve them with that.
That in and of itself, at least activates a person to go, wow, this person knows what I'm going through. I must stick around because they might have the answers because they know they are speaking my language. And this is what I talk about a lot. When you want to build a community, people don't just show up and then feel like they're a part of something.
They first have to realize that they're in the right place.

And that means... that they are being understood. And that means that you as a community leader or future community leader understand what are the commonalities of your audience and how can you speak to them and help them. And just that alone allows a person to go, Oh, I need to...
Okay, this is a cool person or this is a great product or this is a great brand. I'm going to stick around and see what else is here for me. And then over time, sometimes naturally, you just start to see other people like you. However, once I started to learn about the importance of community, there are purposeful things that I've done to...
build that community. So here's a few examples. Number one is inclusion. When you include people in the decisions that you make as a business or community leader, people then are invested in what you are creating. And when people are invested, they're more likely to transact with you.

And whether that transaction is a monetary transaction, like buying something from you, or a transaction meaning they're going to share that thing with somebody else, or a transaction meaning... commenting or engagement or just time. That only happens when people feel like they're included and also being listened to.
You can have people on the basketball court, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're ever going to get the ball passed to them. And this reminds me of a story when I was a little kid. I was literally a little kid in high school. I wasn't five feet tall until my senior year of high school.

00:14:04 - Maelisa Hall
However... You and me both, Pat.

00:14:08 - Pat Flynn
For whatever reason, I chose tall friends, which probably wasn't the smartest thing of me to do in terms of my self-esteem. But I had some great friends and they wanted me to feel included. So of course, I played basketball with them at lunch and after school.
But even though I was on the court, first of all, I was always last picked because this four foot nine kid is not going to really help you. However, even when I was on a team, I was never getting past the ball. I was never getting a chance to shoot. So even though I was on the court, I didn't feel like I was playing the game with my friends.
I didn't feel like I was on the team. So when you are building your community, You're building your team. You got to pass the ball to your teammates every once in a while. And I think that's really important. And you don't have to necessarily just let go of control of your business, which is where I think a lot of people worry about the strategy of inclusion.
It's just like, well, I'm the CEO or I'm the leader.

I can't possibly let anybody else run this but me. I think that's not always a great way to think about it. But the other thing is, you don't have to hand off everything. Even small things like, hey guys, next month, we're going to be talking about this particular topic.
What are some questions that you have that I can answer for you? I can't pick everybody, but just the fact that you're asking your community to participate, to engage is really great. Another strategy, and again, that's actually related to Ask Pat. That's why Ask Pat was created because it was a way for me to facilitate the featuring of my audience and making everybody feel like they were heard.
Even though it was just one person, even though Melissa, you were on one episode, that episode was listened to probably 40 or 50,000 times. And you represented every single listener who had a very similar question.

So even though a person is listening and they're not the ones talking, they are kind of through you, channeling through you, feeling like they're participating and involved as well. So allowing for people to ask questions. It's like the suggestion box.
Remember back in the day, suggestion boxes were literally just a box at Wendy's. with a card and you fill out and it's like, what are complaints you have? What are comments? Please rate us. And you put it in there and then you never know if anybody ever sees that ever again.

00:16:08 - Amber Hawley
Absolutely.

00:16:10 - Pat Flynn
But that was good enough back then. Good enough was just having a place to put a comment and know that, well, hopefully somebody will read that. Today, people expect a reply. They expect a response or they expect at least... you as the community leader caring about when a person speaks up about something.
So our suggestion box now is social media, right? Twitter, Instagram, or these communities on Facebook and allowing for people to speak up and not just connect with you, but them connecting with each other. So allowing and giving permission and even rewarding people for stepping up and even helping others in the community as well.
And this is a really, really important thing. And this is why, especially in a lot of my premium courses, I have a number of members who are very active, in helping others that are coming in. And I've sort of done what I can to help sort of not just promote them up in the ladder over there, but reward them.

Thank them for being in the discussions and helping the newbies come in. And it makes them feel great because they feel like they have something to say and they're getting heard. But it also makes the newbies feel good because they know that it's not just me all the time, but there are other people like them just a few steps ahead that can help offer service to them as well, which is really neat.
I think the other thing is featuring your students and your community, not just by asking them questions, but showing off the amazing people in your community and the things that they're doing. And I know Chris Ducker, for example... does this really well every year at his event, Youpreneur.
He awards the Youpreneur Community Member of the Year. And it's really cool when you do that because then the entire community feels like they're being heard. The entire community can rally with that person. And they all feel like they get that award at the same time.
So you don't necessarily have to give an award for that feeling to happen.

But on my podcast, for example, every once in a while, you'll hear one of my students come on. And they'll talk about how they struggled in the beginning, how they found the content or took action, and then now their lives are changed. And the cool benefit of that is they're essentially leaving an amazing testimonial for my site and or my products without me even asking for it.
I'm just allowing them to share their story. So the people on the other end listening, they're like, wow, Pat's not the one selling me this course, but look at Dr. B here, who is a student of mine who was on my show, who created a podcast to help people with ADHD.
And she has been amazing and has helped people. And when people heard her on my podcast, that encouraged people to go, Wow, if she can do it, I can do it too. Look at how amazing she's going. She's now being listened to in 35 different countries. And she's cute because she told a story about how when she created a podcast, she put a map above her computer.

So every time she saw that she had a new person in a new country... listening to her show, she would put a pin in it and that encouraged her to keep going. That was so cool to hear. And by just allowing my students to have a say in a platform and showing them off a little bit, it also increases my business and it increases the brand awareness and it increases the good feelings that the entire community has.
So I could go on and on and on and on and on about community, as you can tell. But it doesn't have to be hard. You just have to care about... the individuals who were there and allowing them to speak up a little bit and have a say. Because when they're invested, like I said, when they feel like they found their people, they're going to stick around.
They're going to help support that. Those are the people who become your raving fans, your super fans, who will then step up beyond the community and almost feel like it's their obligation to help support your business.

It's like their role now. And when you have a product come out, they're going to be the first ones to buy it even before you... They don't even need to read the sales page. They're going to buy it. If you have trolls show up, and there are many trolls on the internet that like to show up, they're going to be the ones who are going to be on the front lines defending you before you even know they exist.
And that's why the community is so important because that's where raving fans and superfans can come from.

00:19:48 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. And I see that a lot in the actual... everything you're talking about, I've seen it come to fruition. We're in the Power Up podcasting group. And when you're talking about that person stepping up, I think of Jason Skinner, who is... We've become really good friends with him.
And we met him at Social Media Marketing World. And we were just like, we just love this guy. And you would think he was part of your actual team of people that you pay because he's... such a part of it. And it's so amazing. And I think as outsiders, Melissa and I would notice that and be like, wow, this is...
It is so cool to see that. And he's genuinely giving and feeling like... And he's contributing and welcoming people. And I think that's the kind of thing I see a lot in the people that are either listening to your podcast or in these groups is there is that feeling of, hey, if they can do it, I can do it too.

There's a lot of hope, but then there's a lot of support. And I think... that's what's exciting when we think about, let's do this in a really authentic, caring way. And all of the benefit that comes from that. Yes, of course, your business grows. Of course, your courses sell.
And this is what we ultimately want because we're here in business. But it's done in such an authentic way. And I think that really comes across.

00:21:03 - Pat Flynn
And the other part about this is when you have a community, no matter... matter how big or small, when you think about how you can get them to all do things at the same time, because that support, like you said, with each other is key. So what I'm trying to get at is, there's been this movement in communities to do challenges.
And challenges are really great. Challenges are little things that they could do to get and achieve something that they didn't have before, something small, but something that happens on a specific date for a certain amount of time. So one challenge that I did with my audience was the 0 to 100 email challenge.
which was a three-day challenge where on a particular date, it was just, this is the event that's happening right now in the community. All right, guys, on this date, let's all rally. We're going to get behind each other. If you don't have an email list yet, you're going to get your first 100.
You sign up here. I'm going to deliver emails to you over the next three days.

But more than that, you're going to be in this group supporting each other at the same time and sharing your wins and encouraging each other and showing that the people who don't think this is possible can actually do it. And I'll tell you, we did that a couple of years ago and I need to do it again because it's really powerful.
It had 14,000 people all participating at the same time. And I had created a little Facebook group that was separate than my main one for just that event alone. And it was one of the biggest... busiest forums I've ever been a part of. And to see my community members actually taking action and then some stepping up and some asking questions and then other people who I had never even met before answering questions for me before I could even get to them, it's just like, wow.
It's really important to not just have the community, but get them to achieve. And challenges are a great way to do that.

Communities are also great for the purpose of, and you want to talk about inclusion, but If you're trying to determine what your next business idea should be, I mean, going to your community to say, Hey, community, I'm thinking of creating this course.
I would love to take 20 people through it. Here's what it does. I'll let you go through it for free in exchange for your honest feedback on the other end of it. Who's interested? And so those are your people. And if you get nobody to raise their hand, well, then that basically tells you, well, this is not what your community wants.
So that's number one. But number two, if you go through there, then now they feel like they have an obligation to do that work because they've been selected. And then if it works for them, give you an amazing testimonial on the other end. And now you have literally your own community members sharing how this program or course or your coaching or whatever helped them And so when you go back and recommend that program or whatever it is to the rest of the community, now it's not just like a product that was in secret.

People knew it existed and they're probably curious about how it affected the students who went in there as sort of like a beta group. And again, it all happens in the community. And then most people are like, oh, I got this new course I wanna sell. I gotta spend money on ads and I gotta spend money on Instagram sponsorships and I gotta find these influencers with their own audiences.
If you build a community, you don't need any of that stuff. You have built in your own validation people. And guess what? If you do it right, it's a win for everybody. It's a win for you. It's a win for them. And if you listen to them, they can tell you exactly what they need.
And then business becomes relatively easy at that point. It becomes simple. Not easy, but it becomes simple. Those are your people. You help them. They'll tell you what they want. You work with them to create it. All this other... It's external stuff.
It doesn't really matter.

00:24:20 - Maelisa Hall
Man, I love it. It's just like knowledge bombs. And it's just making... But it's also like... What I'm thinking of when you're talking is it really feels like almost like a pay it forward type of community. And you as a leader start that. You have this epic podcast, Smart Passive Income, which has amazing interview after amazing interview with...
Multiple podcast episodes have literally made me money because I have... learned something from your free podcast, and literally sat down and did it. Exactly whatever this person said. And then voila, money is literally coming to me like an hour later.
That has happened, people.

00:25:01 - Amber Hawley
So... I mean, you did implement the information from the podcast.

00:25:07 - Pat Flynn
Yeah. I was implementing, right? You're an action taker, right? I mean, how many people listen to podcasts? Hopefully you're not one of those people who just listens only, like you actually hopefully are taking action.

00:25:15 - Maelisa Hall
Not our listeners.

00:25:17 - Pat Flynn
Yeah. No, I know. I know.

00:25:19 - Maelisa Hall
But I feel like, but then because I've had that experience, then I think like Amber and I talk about creating a podcast, you know, and who do I immediately go to? Oh, Pat just released his course. You know, we decided to do the podcast right around that time when you released Power of Podcasting to everybody.
Yeah. And then I was like, oh, Podcast Movement. We have to go to Podcast Movement. And I immediately think like, oh, let me make sure I use Pat's affiliate link because that's where I heard about it. So you're getting a little bit back. But I'm always thinking about how can I pay Pat back for what he's given me?
And then think about like, oh yeah, other people in the community. Or I learn... When people come to me and they are new entrepreneurs, they're just getting into this, your podcast is the one I tell them to go to first.

I'm like, you can learn almost everything. Here, listen to this podcast. If you're going to pick one, do it. Yeah.

00:26:12 - Pat Flynn
And that in and of itself is a service that you're providing to your people, right? The recommendation to go to the place where they can get the information that they need right now. And that's where a lot of my initial income was coming from for the first few years of my business career was beyond the architecture stuff, which was my own products.
A lot of my income came from affiliate marketing. So recommending other people's products. And sometimes the best advice you can give is... don't get my stuff, get this person's stuff. And you can get paid back with a commission for that if there is an affiliate program.
But even if there isn't, you are still serving them and you're still helping that person. In turn, you're going to get support back. The universe just has this way of... They call it the law of reciprocity. When you help people, they can't help but want to help you back.
And no, not everybody is going to. And it's not a thing that you keep track of like, Oh, I just saw...

Amber, listen to this podcast. So she's got six weeks to give me something back in return. It's not like that. You just give, give, give, give. Or as Gary Vee likes to say, jab, jab, jab, jab. And so then sometimes you just get back in return without even asking.
However, I've also learned over the past couple of years that that ask is really important too. Because sometimes people don't know how to pay you back and they won't even be called to do that until you ask. And so that's where selling becomes a great service.
And this was a huge mindset shift for me as an entrepreneur over the last few years. Because like I said, affiliate marketing was my thing for a while. It wasn't like, hey, let me sell you this thing. It's like, let me recommend this thing that I have a lot of experience with and go get it.
And then I don't have to worry anymore. But there was a friend of mine who said, Pat, you're doing your audience a disservice because you're not selling them anything of your own.

They want to learn from you. And yes, there's a ton of other podcasting courses out there, but people want your way. They like how you teach. And they're not podcasting because they... don't have anybody they trust that has something that can help them.
So you need to create this. And it was like Chalene Johnson was the one who told me that. And I was like, okay, she's like a multi-multi-millionaire, huge entrepreneur. I should probably listen to her advice. And so I took her advice and it's helped thousands of people now like yourselves with starting a show and building your own communities, which is really amazing.
So again, it really comes down to just service. Like Like, serve first and don't expect anything in return. And as a byproduct of that, guess what? You're going to get amazing things in return. And it's not always dollars. It's not always a sale. It could be a share.
It could be a good word. It could be help when you need it.

It could be if your site goes down and you are struggling, maybe somebody who had absorbed your content for free for the longest time is an expert at web servers. and might go, hey, Pat, you've helped me out so much and I really had nothing to ever give you, but I see you're struggling.
What could I do to help you? That happened in 2013 with a guy named Brian Dwyer, a fan who had listened to the show. My site was hacked and I couldn't get it up for two weeks. And he came out from nowhere and said, Pat, I want to help you get things squared away and your site completely secure.
And I've been working with him ever since.

00:29:17 - Amber Hawley
Wow.

00:29:17 - Pat Flynn
So it just shows you there are multiple ways to get, quote, paid back. for the service that you offer. Don't even worry. It's going to happen. Just give, give, give. And if you have something worth selling, sell it because you can sell and serve at the same time as well.

00:29:30 - Amber Hawley
Yes. And I think that's such a good message. And there's slightly the little therapist part of my brain that's got the little flag up that goes, I think this is an important message that so many business owners need to hear about, really about giving and the long game.
And there is a reciprocity that will come back and you have to believe that. But for somebody who... For the people who are not at the level you're at yet, where they're starting out or they're kind of... They've got a decent list going and they're doing all the things.
Right. If they're trying to think about what are some strategies I can implement to be building my community without being in a place of overgiving. I guess the therapist part of me is like, what about that... burning myself out or continuing to give so much but not having a boundary around it, I guess.

00:30:18 - Pat Flynn
Yeah. I mean, there are... I've come across many people who are just complete givers and they burn themselves out because they've just been giving for so long. And part of that is, well, you haven't asked for anything in return either. Or you haven't given people a way to return back to you.
And I think a lot of that also has to do with, well, okay, what are your goals? It's one thing to build a community, but it's another thing to have that community support a goal that you have or a mission that you have in which point you can go, hey, community, this is where we're headed and I'd love your support with that in any which way, shape, or form.
And This is why I talk about my book, Will It Fly? in the beginning is I've met a ton of entrepreneurs who are successful on paper. And they've built successful businesses, but they're not even happy. And it's because they just do what those first opportunities tell them to do without thinking about, well, how does this fit into the life that I actually want?

And so I think figuring out... It's like if you're going on a drive somewhere, if you punch that address in the navigation menu, or in Google Maps or something, that's going to give you the directions. And if you get off course, well, at least you can get back on course, just make a U-turn up ahead.
versus just driving because you just want to stay driving. And when you drive and drive and drive with no direction, you're going to run out of gas. Or you might end up further away than where you actually should end up being. So I think purpose and mission is really important behind the community that you are building as well.
And I think that you have to put your business cap on every once in a while. You should be getting paid for the service that you do provide. And eventually, you have to get to that point where you know that you can both sell and serve at the same time.
You have to make money from what you do or else you won't stay around for so long, right? That's the other thing.

Chris Ducker taught me that. He's like, so I have a big mission to help change the world in terms of education and helping kids learn entrepreneurship. And the more capital I have, the bigger impact I can have to do that. And for a while, I was just sitting and resting on my laurels and complacent with where things were.
And it was only when I stepped up because I had this bigger goal and began to serve my audience in ways and ask for a transaction, knowing that these things can actually serve people. It's a win for everybody. Again, that's the biggest thing. Make sure it's a win for everybody.
It's not a win for you if you just continue to give and then you burn out. Eventually, what's going to happen? You're going to... burnout and not be able to serve that community anymore. So being aware of your energy, your needs is important too. It's just like when you go on a plane and they do that little demonstration of the safety things, they go, hey, you got to put your own mask on first.

Because if you don't, you're going to pass out and you can't help anybody. Now a person has to come and help you. So being aware of your needs and your energy and the business that you're creating is important as well.

00:32:58 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. And I like this sense of thinking about your mission. in relation to your community and what you want to create, because that is what's going to give you a cohesive community, right? And I think about people who talk really specifically, like certain podcasts, for example.
There are a lot of communities around podcasts. And certain podcasts are explicit language and have a lot of explicit language. And that's one type of community, right? And they're like, hey, this is how we talk. And our podcast, we always say we're going to be like that, but then we actually don't.
end up doing that really. Except for sometimes. I know. Every once in a while.

00:33:34 - Amber Hawley
I was like, Pat won't allow me in his community because I have a proclivity.

00:33:39 - Pat Flynn
I'm not against swearing. Like I... have said a swear word every once in a while. But I just don't put on my podcast. And the reason is...

00:33:47 - Maelisa Hall
Right. On purpose, right?

00:33:48 - Pat Flynn
On purpose. And part of that is there are kids listening. And I want to respect the parents of those children and the ears of those children. I so want to share Gary Vee with my son, but I just can't.

00:34:00 - Amber Hawley
Yeah, he's making it hard.

00:34:02 - Pat Flynn
And to me, I'm like, why would you do that? Add those kinds of things into your... I mean, but that's Gary. And he attracts a certain kind of people. And I'm me. And I attract... I'm thankful that I attract other families, which is pretty cool. And people who have kids.
And I do have a lot of kids who listen to the show. And it's awesome. I love it. And this is... again, ties into my energy moving forward in terms of entrepreneurship and education for kids and stuff.

00:34:27 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. I'm curious. What would you say? Because it sounds like that mission was not your mission initially, right?

00:34:34 - Pat Flynn
No.

00:34:34 - Maelisa Hall
Because you were still searching for jobs. I didn't realize how long you were still interviewing. What would you say was your mission in the beginning to And then how did that shift?

00:34:46 - Pat Flynn
It was literally... That's what it was. I was just like, I need to make ends meet. I am about to get married to this Filipino woman and the whole entire country of the Philippines is going to be there, essentially. You know what I mean? And I'm half Filipino too.
So it's like, I had to just survive. And that survival instinct actually was extremely helpful. Because that pushed me to do things that I wouldn't do if I was just comfortable. I took actions that I wouldn't normally have taken. Bolder actions. And it's the reason why I didn't start a business, even though deep down, I really think I was always an entrepreneur.
If I had never gotten laid off, none of this would be here. And so again, I'm very thankful for that, even though it was the toughest time of my life. But initially, my goal was just survival. Can I make ends meet? And then the goal from there was, okay, things are going well.
Can I be financially secure? Was my next goal.

Can I then... Once we started having kids, can I pay their way through college before they turn three? And that was a pretty fun goal. And I'm excited to say that, yes, we've achieved that as well. And then it was philanthropy. Beyond me, beyond my network, how can I help others who are really in desperately need of help?
And that's when I got connected with Pencils of Promise, who is a company organization that was founded by Adam Braun, who builds schools around the world. And through that organization, we built a couple schools in Ghana, Africa. And I went to Africa.
And I got to meet the students and the teachers and see the ribbon ceremonies when they opened these schools. And it was one of the most impactful times of my life. And I realized that there was so much more that I can do that I didn't even think was possible.
And so I've always tried to level up my goal thinking and my ambitions. And this is why now I'm getting... As my goals have changed, my inspiration has changed.

My mentors has changed. And right now, my inspiration are... big thinkers like Elon Musk for the way that they treat possibilities. Anything is possible. Let's go to Mars and colonize Mars. Okay. Well, how about me? Let's reform education. And let's teach kids the skills that they need to succeed, whether they want to be an entrepreneur or not.
And no, that was not even in the cards... in the beginning. Every new goal that I've met has unlocked new goals. And yes, it's not what my community... The older people in my community... Not older, like older generation, but the people who've been in my community for a while, they didn't know that I was going to go down this route, but neither did I.
But as long as I'm just continually being myself and honest and open and authentic, about who I am, the people who will want to continue to follow me will. And the people who aren't about that anymore won't. And that's okay. And what got me here is not going to get me there.

And sometimes that means growing a different community. Or in my case, I think what I'm actually doing is I'm including more people based on... different missions and different values that add on to my first goal of just survival. And now I'm able to even reach and connect and teach more people.
So yeah, it's kind of weird how it goes like that. And who knows what the next 2, 5, 10, 20 years are going to hold. But all I know is as I've continued to grow, I've been continued to meet with new challenges. And I continue to have those voices in my head that say, No, who are you to do this?
Why are you even trying this? And I have proven to myself now that those things... are just there to test me. That those are just things that are never going to go away. But I also have proved to myself... I have proof that I've been able to overcome those challenges and those voices.
And that's opening up a lot more possibilities for me.

And I think it's just going to continue to grow over time.

00:38:12 - Amber Hawley
So for those... I mean... I know. I feel like I wanted to say what Melissa said. It's like I'm sitting there just processing everything you're saying and I'm writing a lot of notes. So my brain was like... So thank you for that. And thinking about for people who are now trying to hopefully not in survival mode, but a lot of us are, let's face it.
So either in survival mode and they're in that beginning stage where they're like, okay, I really want to be connecting with my people. And, and I think what you said about inclusion and featuring people, it's, Huge, and, like we said, the transparency.
It really makes a difference. But as a beginner who's building that community, are there, do you think it's different now? Do you think it's like, harder? Because there is so there's so many people and so many, so much noise out there. Especially with all the social media stuff like, how do you build that community now?

And maybe this is for like, kind of your new stuff too, where? How do you shift and pivot and get? people to come along with you? What do you think is an important factor of that?

00:39:10 - Pat Flynn
I think it's actually easier now because of all the noise. Because there's so much noise, because there is so much to consume. What people are really looking for is just a little bit of... Is there anybody out there who cares about me? And if you can just share that you care, then you will grow with that person and that community will grow.
And your advantage when you're just starting out is the fact that you have the ability to actually have these direct connections with people. For a brand like myself, with Smart Passive Income, there's no way I could possibly have a direct connection with every single person who's on my blog or listening to my podcast.
It is physically impossible for me to do that with just the time. We only have 24 hours in the day. But when you're just starting out, you just have... 10 email subscribers, guess what? You have a perfect opportunity to learn as much as you can about those 10 people.

And if you reach out to them and perhaps even have a Skype conversation with them or get on Zoom with them, and you start asking them questions about how you could better serve them, don't you think that that person is going to go, wow, this person is one of the only people out there that seems to actually care about this thing that I really need help with.
And so I'm going to stick around. And so when you can... show that you are devoting some time to them, they're going to devote time back to you. And that's your huge advantage when you're just starting out. So I actually try to do something similar in my brand because of how powerful that direct connection is.
And what I do is actually every single month, I reach out to 10 random new email subscribers and I try to get on the phone with them or try to get on Skype with them. But Pat, you have 250,000 on your email list. Yeah. It doesn't matter. I want to know and hear...
stories and learn directly from the people who have just recently subscribed to my list.

So I know and so I can recalibrate if I need to. So I can revisit why I do what I do. So I can hear what I could do better. So I can get confirmation of where people are coming from and why they're sticking around. These conversations are gold. And so if you're just starting out and you have 50 subscribers on your email list, like try to learn everything you can about them.
Because then they're going to stick around. They're going to bring people in because they're going to share with their friends who are also going through similar things to come and listen to you because you're paying attention to them. And there comes a point where eventually you can't possibly do that anymore.
But that's how you start. That's how you differentiate. And that's how you can build a community. A community doesn't have to be 200,000 people. Actually, that's not even really a community anymore. I think... I remember this because I was in marching band and...

There were 170 people in my marching band in high school. And there are these bands in Texas, in Arkansas, in the South that are like 500 people. And so I was like, how do you ever get to know that many people? When you're in the band, you can't possibly...
I knew every person in my band. Could a person know everybody in their band? And there's apparently a magic number of just the number of people who you could know in a group of that size. And after that, everybody's just kind of a blur. So you have a huge advantage to create a really tight-knit group very quickly at the start of your brand.
And what's cool is the better that you learn about them, the more you're going to attract other people like them too. So I think it's easier because guess what? We can connect not just on Skype, but if you build an Instagram account and you have some people follow you because you talk about certain things and you use the hashtags, and then you see somebody comment, love your stuff, you can send them a direct message.

And in that direct message, you can send them a video and go, Hey, my name is Pat. Thank you for being on my Instagram channel. What kind of stuff would you like to see? Or what do you need help with the most right now? Just the fact that a person cares about what they think is huge.
Because I think the biggest thing in this noisy world we have right now is just nobody's actually... A lot of us feel like nobody's listening. So be the person that listens and open up that conversation and you're going to see some magic happen.

00:42:51 - Maelisa Hall
And I love that you're highlighting... You can do that in the beginning, but... But also, you are... We won't say you've made it, right? But you're pretty big in this entrepreneur space and podcasting space. And you're still making that effort. You're still saying, knowing my community this well is my priority.
So that's... I mean, what? At least... That's like 10 hours of your month, every month.

00:43:17 - Pat Flynn
I mean, some of those calls literally are five minutes because they're just like, Oh my gosh, I don't know what to say. Which is kind of cool. But then, I mean, I've had two-hour conversations with people before too, because they talk and I just want to listen.
And I want to keep digging deeper and going into their story. And really, when you get those stories, especially for anybody who's new, ask for the story. Say something like, Well, tell me about a time when you... did struggle with blank. And just listen.
Just listen to them. And then when you create content or when you create a podcast or when you are creating a product, you're not just like, oh, what's my ideal avatar? What's their made-up name and their made-up age with their made-up kids and their made-up job?
Now you actually had a real conversation and you can empathize with them and that's who you're building for. And then you build the thing or you create the content and then you go, here you go, Janice, you inspired this.

00:44:06 - Amber Hawley
Yeah.

00:44:07 - Pat Flynn
And I think... Do you think they're going to come back? Absolutely. Absolutely.

00:44:09 - Amber Hawley
Yes. I think what you're saying is so hopeful. And it's such a different perspective where people talk about the noise. And I like the idea of thinking about it as an advantage. And I think that's kind of exciting for people. And so it makes it feel doable, which I think, again, is the big takeaway that probably why your community continues to grow.
And so... Thank you for sharing that. I honestly don't know if we've ever been this speechless listening to somebody before. I can almost see our wheels turning and just like, oh, wow.

00:44:44 - Pat Flynn
Speaking of challenges, could I give your listeners a challenge?

00:44:47 - Amber Hawley
Yes. Please do.

00:44:48 - Pat Flynn
And this will be simple and along the lines of what I just said. Go into your Instagram account, if you have one, or maybe it's Twitter, and find somebody who's following you. Maybe it's somebody who you know or just a person who recently commented and send them a direct message with a video just saying thanks and ask them, What else can I help you with?
And the responses you're going to get are going to blow you away. And they're going to be blown away. And you're just going to see what kind of impact 10 seconds can make. Try it.

00:45:12 - Amber Hawley
I love it. We are going to do that challenge as well. So you better head on over to the MyBizBestie Instagram and comment so we can pick you.

00:45:20 - Pat Flynn
Oh, you guys should totally do that to some of your audience.

00:45:23 - Maelisa Hall
It'd be fun. Oh, we're doing it. Yes. Yeah. Let us know. For sure. Thank you so much, Pat. That was excellent. I love the challenge. Go do it. Any final words before we sign off?

00:45:35 - Pat Flynn
I mean, the biggest thing is that even for a little challenge like this, you might have a little bit of fear, a little bit of, well, this is not going to make me feel very comfortable. But you know what? I bet if you were to think about the most amazing things that have happened in your life, they've probably happened in the same space of being a little bit uncomfortable.
Most of the magic and innovation happens outside of your comfort zone. And so actually, when I think about what I'm going to do next in my business or in life, I think about, well, what would make me a little bit uncomfortable? That's probably a sign that that's probably where I should go.
So if you are feeling a little bit of discomfort in this challenge, have that be a sign that this is probably a good thing and that this is something that could likely have something amazing happen on the other end of it.

00:46:14 - Maelisa Hall
Love it. Thanks so much, Pat.

00:46:15 - Pat Flynn
Thank you. Thanks, everybody.