How Inner Growth Can Lead to Prosperity Inside and Out with Natalie MacNeil

Amber Hawley [00:00:23]:
Welcome to season 4 of the My Biz Bestie podcast. I'm Amber Hawley.

Melissa Hall [00:00:28]:
And I'm Melissa Hall.

Amber Hawley [00:00:29]:
And today we have a very special treat for you all. We have the amazing, the illustrious Natalie McNeill with us.

Natalie MacNeil [00:00:39]:
Hey, everybody.

Melissa Hall [00:00:42]:
We are both so excited about this.

Amber Hawley [00:00:44]:
Yes. So for those of you who don't know Natalie, it means you haven't been listening to our podcast, right? Many times. And if you're a first-time listener, that's okay. Otherwise, shame on you and go back and listen. But Natalie is the— she's an Emmy Award-winning entrepreneur, and she has a few different endeavors and businesses. She's hosted events with Richard Branson, and she has the Conquer Club, which is how we actually met her. And we wanted to bring her on because in addition to knowing all the things about business, she is kind of a self-care guru. So we felt that she could really benefit our audience in how do you take care of as yourself as an entrepreneur with all these ups and downs. So welcome, Natalie.

Natalie MacNeil [00:01:36]:
First, I appreciate each and every one of you who are listening to this right now, and thank you, Amber and Melissa, for having me on. I have been an entrepreneur for over 10 years now and have built multiple businesses. The main focus of my last few years being She Takes On The World and shetakesontheworld.com, which has been listed by Forbes as one of the top 100 websites for women. And I've written 3 bestselling business books for women as well. I'm now at a point in my career and business where I am really owning my experience and everything that I have trained in and just weaving all of that together into new experiences that I'm creating and a new book that I've been working on. And what's coming next feels like it is the weaving together of all of my gifts and talents and trainings. And I'm in this transition period, which I'm sure some of you can relate to, and it just feels like a really delicious place to be and a really beautiful space to be playing in. So that's something that I'm really excited about right now as I get ready for this new book and a bit of a new direction from where I've been over the last decade. And where I've been and what I've done over the last decade, a path that I'm very proud of, and there are a lot of big achievements in that. And what's next is— what's next feels big and alive and present in me. And I believe in really following that, following what's present now. So if any of you can take anything from that little intro, then great.

Melissa Hall [00:03:34]:
Well, I feel like that's one of the things that really strikes me about you and you about, know, the message that you send, whether it's posting on social media or whether it's like actually like you're going to your event or one of your coaching programs or something, is that all of your business decisions Although you are very careful about maintaining a personal life and like maintaining balance, you know, and choosing those things for yourself, your business decisions definitely seem to come out of personal reflection and like constant personal reflection and personal improvement.

Natalie MacNeil [00:04:13]:
Yes.

Melissa Hall [00:04:14]:
Yes.

Natalie MacNeil [00:04:15]:
And I would preface that with this idea that we are all perfect, whole, and complete. And at the same time, we have a lot of conditioning. We live in a world where there have been a lot of things imprinted on us. There have been a lot of beliefs from others that we have taken on and that have been projected onto us. There are ways the world has been interpreted for us that would not necessarily align with our highest truth if we really dove in and explore that for ourselves and come fully into alignment with who we really are and what we are here to do on this planet. And so I believe that personal growth and business growth go hand in hand. And it's more about continually expanding your own capacity and container to be able to hold more. And part of that is doing very deep inner work. And always, there's there are always going to be new triggers. There are always going to be new things to look at and explore within ourselves. And one of the things I'm passionate about moving forward is sharing more of that process with people because there's a lot that people see on the outside. They might see the bestselling books and the multiple businesses and the Emmy and these other accolades and magazine covers and things like that, they don't see what goes into that behind the scenes and the amount of work that I do personally to continually expand my capacity to be able to hold everything that I hold and to do the things that I'm doing right now, if all of that makes sense. The inner work is the most important work that we do. And again, there's always something new to be looking at and to be reflecting on. And you can start with anything that's triggering you right now. What what is, is triggering you? What are you seeing on social media, for example, that is, is creating this feeling in you of lack, of not having something, of feeling like you are not enough or leading you into comparison, or who is that person in your life that is saying something or acting in a way that is triggering you or causing you to be like off balance and feeling like you're not in your center anymore. Those are the places to start looking. And the more that you can do that work and look at those triggers and reflect, Again, it's just deepening and expanding your capacity, and that's one of my key focuses every single day, and that shows up in many different forms. It shows up in relationships. It shows up in just becoming aware of a blind spot that I had, and we all have those, seeing something with a new set of— with fresh eyes. Really seeing something that I've only been looking upon before. Those are the things that I'm most curious about and interested in day to day. And as a result of diving into all that, the business grows and more opportunities and doors open. And it feels like a beautiful place to be. And I think most people, I see most entrepreneurs not doing that deeper work. And I think that that's what can unlock a lot more of your potential. So very long answer, but I think it's an important conversation.

Amber Hawley [00:08:04]:
I do too. And I think that's that's why, why your work really resonates with me as far you know, you as, I, know, I I I don't, don't, follow Gary Vee like back in the day and I really like his stuff to an extent and you he's, know, the hustle guy. Right. So there's something about that hustle that I like because I have a very strong work ethic and at the same time that doesn't really fit my lifestyle as far as like having a family and, you know, wanting to enjoy my life as well. And so I think you're somebody that has found that way, like you're saying, expanding your bandwidth by taking care of yourself so that you can actually enjoy your life, which I think is kind of the point, but you still are very much accomplished and focusing on work. And so by doing that inner work, it does allow you to be more focused because I'm not going to resonate with somebody who's telling me, oh, you know, you don't need to— just take it easy on yourself, don't work. It's like, well, that's never going to sit well because I do love working. I love my work, but I don't want it to be everything. I just want it to be one part.

Natalie MacNeil [00:09:13]:
And it's finding balance and then recognizing that balance is different for all of us as well. What feels balanced for me may not feel balanced for you. And this is why I love the concept of strategic imbalance. Which is a framework by Marcus Buckingham. I hope I'm remembering his name correctly, Marcus Buckingham. This concept of strategic imbalance is what allows us to imbalance our lives in a way that brings us more joy. And my life might feel very imbalanced to a lot of people, but it brings me joy and that's what matters.

Amber Hawley [00:10:02]:
I like that. I'm not sure. I've never heard of that, but I'm definitely gonna check it out. But it kind of reminds me of an episode that would have already aired by the time this interview airs, where we talked about the four-burner theory, where there's like these four areas of your life. And if you're trying to achieve success, you kind of got to temporarily turn one off And if you really want extreme success, you have to turn 2 off. And I think it's being strategic about that. It's not a forever thing. It's doing it for this period of time, like you're saying, very strategically saying, okay, what are my goals? What is my focus right now in this, you know, whether it's a season, a stage, or just a few months.

Natalie MacNeil [00:10:42]:
Absolutely. And I just verified, yes, it is Marcus Buckingham. I wanted to make sure I got his name right on this concept of strategic imbalance. Essentialism is a book I'm reminded of as you're speaking to Amber that I think is really important. It's like, what is the one essential thing for you to be focusing on right now? And where you are putting that focus and you energy, know, that's where your attention and your energy is flowing. And that's what allows that thing to be all it can potentially be. If you are scattered, if you're working on too many things at once, you're likely not having any one of those things be its fullest expression and reach its fullest potential. And that's why I'm a fan of getting very strategically focused on what you feel is the most essential thing that goes back to the aliveness and what is present in you right now. And can you put your attention and your resources there? And make that sustainable and grow that before taking on other projects, taking on other businesses. And I think finding that focus for periods of time is definitely one of the ways that I've been able to grow and do the things that I have done.

Melissa Hall [00:12:06]:
And I'm thinking about, like, you are obviously a multi-passionate person, right, which I think Most of us are like, you know, there are very few of us who only have like one interest or one thing, right? Even if it's like, I'm really into business, maybe like different aspects of it. So there is a way to do that, to be, you know, to be a creative and to be interested in different things and, and to have— but I guess you're, you're sort of thinking of like these long-term goals and it's almost like temporarily, what do I focus on? Not that this is the only thing I'm ever going to do, right? But what do I really focus on?

Natalie MacNeil [00:12:44]:
This is a super important distinction because what I see with people who are both creative and have a lot of different passions and also are very entrepreneurial, and oftentimes we do, we possess both of those things. We are both entrepreneurial and have all of these passions. They seem to be two traits that a lot of entrepreneurs have. Then, because we're entrepreneurial, and because we have these different passions and creative pursuits, we think that every single one of those needs to be a business. Not every one of your passions needs to be a business. I want to repeat this again for everybody listening. Not all of your passions need to be monetized and need to become a business. I have definitely in the past been in a cycle of feeling like I need to monetize everything. I would go and do a new training and be like, "Wow. To build a business around this. Like I've trained in breathwork and Kundalini mudras and breathing practices and coaching and a number of other things, herbology, like creating my own tinctures and tonics. And not all of that needs to be a business. I can take everything that I'm learning and I can integrate that into me. And that changes how I show up in my business. But it's still important for me to focus on that one essential thing because that's what allows me to build the bigger business and have the team and have that source of revenue before jumping into something else and creating something else. And that's why I tend to stay focused on something for usually years. I will maintain that focus for years in a particular niche or space before moving into something else, depending again on what is present and alive. And right now what is present and alive in me is taking everything that I've done to this point and the integration of that and bringing all of me into this next iteration of my business. And it has also been over, this has been over 10 years. So I've built a few things and that's been over a decade. I didn't try to build a few things in a 6-month period.

Amber Hawley [00:15:02]:
Natalie may or may not have had that conversation with us a few times, but I still think it's good for other people. People to hear it too, because we do see it.

Natalie MacNeil [00:15:13]:
I have this conversation with everybody more than once, that's for sure. I have friends who I have been telling the same thing to for years. And it might be a conversation we need to keep on having. I'm also not ever going to tell someone like, you can't do multiple things. I know that we can do multiple things. We just can't always do multiple things all at at the same time. Sometimes we need to say, this is what makes the most sense for the next 3 months. And then for the 6 months after that, I'll be able to move into focusing on this. And ask yourself what makes the most sense to do next? What is the next best thing for you to be focused on? And see if you can spend a few months. This is where the sprint concept comes in, which is the foundation of both the Conquer Kit and Conquer Your Year. It's like, For 12 weeks, can you maintain focus on one thing that is going to drive you closer to your bigger picture goals? And then after that 12 weeks, you can reevaluate and see what you're going to focus on for the next 12 weeks. Sometimes it's the same thing and sometimes it changes.

Melissa Hall [00:16:20]:
Yeah, and it's so funny because when you say it like that, it's like, well, that's not that long. Like anybody should be able to do that, right? But when you're in it, it can be so easy to get distracted by other things or by a new idea. But I'm also curious, like, how do you balance that, like, that testing phase and kind of that time when you're figuring things out and listening to your intuition about maybe how things should adjust, but then also still staying committed? Does that make sense?

Natalie MacNeil [00:16:52]:
Yes. How do I strategically imbalance my my life and the way that I'm running my business. I think the period that I'm in right now is a good example because I have have my, I my business that is doing well. I love the clients that I serve. And I have also been working on this new startup with a business partner, Alexi Panos. And in that space, we're playing a lot with VR and AR, augmented reality, and bringing that into the event space, like taking everything that we've done and really bringing it into one new business product event. And that feels really exciting to me because it feels like everything I've been working on for the last 10 years all wrapped up into one thing that feels like such a game changer in the industry that we are in. And at the same time, I have other things. I have this new book that's coming out. So there are other things that need my attention. We are very intentional about doing something every week that drives that forward. And we're very much in the exploration phases of that. And that would almost be like the equivalent of having a full-time job and building your business on the side. That is a project that a year from now, 2 years from now might take a lot more time. Right now we are testing, we are laying the foundation, we are talking to a lot of people, we're experimenting with the business model and we're getting very, very clear on how we will generate revenue. And that's another thing that I see a lot of people not necessarily focus on from the beginning, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I see a lot of people just jump into projects or follow passions. I was on a call this morning with a group of entrepreneurs where half of them did not have a clear business model and clear revenue streams that they were actively working on building all the time. Like, what is your main revenue stream and what are you doing to build that today? That needs to be a priority. And then the other things that you're doing, yes, you can move forward on them and make sure that those have a clear business model and revenue streams as well. So I'm always looking at what is alive and present for me, and also where is my revenue coming from, and making sure that the revenue's coming in to be able to focus on the new things that I want to focus on as well. Because if you're focused on too many things and none of those things are generating the kind of revenue that you could be generating if you were just focusing on that one thing, then you're not going to have the resources to continue to invest in those passions that you want to be pursuing and turning into a business.

Melissa Hall [00:19:47]:
Yeah. And that was something that was really eye-opening for me hearing from Elizabeth Gilbert, who talks about this a lot, right? Like balancing being a creative and making money from your creative endeavors and how that can impact your creativity and your enjoyment of that, right? And how it's not always about, like you said, turning everything you like doing into a business. And it was really interesting I was at an event where she was talking about how she had a job, like a day job that she kept until I think it was after Eat, Pray, Love. She had written multiple books that had done well before that, but she still kept a job because she didn't want her writing to be reliant. She didn't want her income to be reliant on her creativity because she felt like it can actually kind of stifle it, right?

Natalie MacNeil [00:20:42]:
It can create a lot of pressure. And then are you doing your best work from that place of pressure and from that place of, I need, I need this to be paying all my bills right now, I need this to be X, Y, and Z, instead of letting it be what it is?

Amber Hawley [00:21:01]:
Yeah. And I think, you know, going back to what you're saying about sticking with something And sometimes for years to really get it on a solid foundation. I think that is a real struggle for a lot of people, not just Melissa and I. I know, including some of us. But I do see that as an issue in all the circles that we're in of these female entrepreneurs as well, where I think if they are saying, okay, I'm checking in with myself and what feels alive in me right now is, oh, this new shiny object. And I think, so it's good for people to hear that message of you have to stick with the thing that's supporting your life until it really gets to a place where it's sustainable, and then focusing on those other endeavors. And I think the way you just said, having something that you're putting effort into a little bit at a time, but it's— you're not letting it detract from your core business or your core revenue stream. I think that's a really important message for people to hear, for women to hear especially.

Melissa Hall [00:22:09]:
Yeah. And I think that's what can often be disheartening too, when you're in that phase of like working full-time and building up your business, is you just— all you hear about in a lot of like, you know, these entrepreneurs or circles that we're in is like how to quit your day job. Like how to, you know, the focus is always on that and not on, like you're saying, like how do you actually create something that you know is sustainable? How do you know you're focusing on the right things, which is going to be producing revenue, right? Like, how do you stay focused on that part of it as you make this plan to then become full-time?

Natalie MacNeil [00:22:43]:
I see a lot of people quit or lose momentum when they're just, when they're just getting into that place of momentum. I see a lot of people start to build some momentum and then jump into something else. And that can be a very destructive pattern to be in. And I think you need to ask yourself, why, why when I have opportunities here, am I jumping into this? And what is this going to give me? What is it about this new thing that is pulling me? And it always comes down to, it's not about that shiny object, it's about how you think that shiny object is going to make you feel., and the space it's going to put you in. And if you can identify that, you can have that in the current thing that you are working on. So if I'm like, okay, this new thing that I'm working on in the virtual reality space, my first business that I built, we created some of the world's first 360-degree interactive films and media projects. And I loved that. And then I started focusing on everything I was doing with She Takes on the World. I got the book deal, that became my business. And now, playing with Alexi Panos in this new space of events and augmented reality and bringing all that together, there's an excitement there. And when I look at that, and there's part of me that would love, that like wants to play in that space even more. And if I'm asking myself, well, what is that giving me? Well, I feel like I'm pioneering in that space. It feels innovative. It feels like I'm on the leading edge of something. And if I can start identifying what it is that I am looking to feel in jumping into that new thing, I can come back to what I'm in right now and say, how can I bring this spirit of pioneering and innovation and acting on creative impulse and creating something that feels brand new and that other people aren't doing? Like, how can I bring that here? Oftentimes, it will eliminate the need to be jumping around to different things. It's not about that other thing. It's about what you think that other thing is going to give you and how it's going to make you feel. You can choose that in the thing that you're in right now too.

Amber Hawley [00:25:17]:
I think that's very, very powerful. People should let that sink in a little bit. That's a huge knowledge bomb right there.

Natalie MacNeil [00:25:26]:
Let that land. It's a big one. It's like anything. It's like this woman that I was just coaching before this call, she was like, "I need to make $50,000 before the fall. I need that." And I said, "Okay, cool." And when we really dove into that, it's never about the money. It's not about the $50,000. It's how she believes having that $50,000 is going to make her feel? And from that space, from the space of that will make me feel like things are working, that will make me feel like nothing is tight, like there isn't a struggle or a desperation in my business or in trying to like make something happen. Once I can see what it is that she thinks that is going to give her, we can say, okay, and how do we get that right now? And how do we be that right now? So the person who is not in desperation in their business, or when they get onto a sales call, like, what does that look like? And having this feeling of, okay, my business is actually working. Let's find the ways that your business really is working right now, not 6 months from now, but now. And if we can start to be with that, and be with what is right now, it creates infinite possibilities and potentiality for the future. It's when we get really attached to how something is going to be then that we start to create suffering and we start to create longing and we start to feel not good enough or compare ourselves to others. And that is not the place to build a business. A successful business from, and you cannot be of highest service from that place either.

Melissa Hall [00:27:24]:
Yeah, you have to just let these knowledge bombs just sit there for a minute, like press pause. I don't know.

Amber Hawley [00:27:30]:
Let's take a moment of silence, people.

Natalie MacNeil [00:27:32]:
A moment of silence. Breathe.

Amber Hawley [00:27:36]:
So people find themselves in that place, in that place of feeling the desperation or the suffering of it or maybe the burnout of it because they're in that place of wanting something to be what it's not at this moment?

Natalie MacNeil [00:27:53]:
Step away.

Amber Hawley [00:27:54]:
Okay. I was like, what was going to be your recommendation? There you go.

Natalie MacNeil [00:28:00]:
Step away. If you are— I think this is one of the most powerful practices that I have. If I am in a space of feeling like things are not working, like I don't want to be doing what I'm needing to be doing right now. And by the way, I will caveat, there are days where I have one-on-one clients and when I have meetings that I just can't reschedule or cancel, and those are commitments that I have made. In between that time though, in terms of what I'm working on, my priority list, my to-do list, I can usually move some of those things around. So if I'm in a place of feeling, and I was in this place last week, I had some big challenges come up last week. Something happened to me that was very challenging to move through. And from that place, I could not do my best writing. I was not a clear and empty vessel. And every morning my intention and my prayer is I empty myself so that spirit can flow through me. And use me, use me. Where will you have me go and what will you have me do today? When that river is backed up, is clogged, there are big boulders in the way, I'm not going to be able to do my best work and be of highest service. And what is highest service in that moment is usually to step away and to go and do something that's going to put me in a different space. For me, that's usually nature. If I am experiencing writer's block, I am frustrated, I am in one of those spirals of like, "This isn't fucking working. This is the worst day ever," the best thing I can do is close my laptop and get out on a hiking trail and find things to celebrate and to appreciate. I am on that hiking trail like, "Wow, it is so beautiful. The sky is—" It's so blue, and I love the way that clouds are just passing through it. It's the same with these feelings. It's the same with these feelings that I'm experiencing of this isn't working. It's just like a cloud in the sky passing through it. It's going to pass through. Look at these beautiful trees and how grounding they make me feel. I feel really grounded in this moment. I love being out in nature, just getting into this flow of gratitude and appreciation and coming back to the present moment, because that is is where I can make the best decision from. That is where my creativity starts to flow again. If I'm trying to work on a chapter for my book and I'm up against a deadline, so that's creating pressure, and that is one of my revenue streams. I get paid for the books that I'm writing and the works that I'm creating. And if I'm sitting at a computer and I've been sitting there for 2 hours and I need to write something because I have a deadline, Nothing's going to flow to me while I'm just sitting at that computer. But if I start moving my body, and if I start getting into that state of being out in nature and celebrating the trees and the grass and the sky and life, that is what puts me back into the creative flow. We can't solve a problem from that energy of the suffering or the, "I can't figure this out right now." We need to change our state. We need to get moving. We especially need to get moving. That's one of the big secrets. Move your body and a lot of answers and creativity will start moving through you.

Amber Hawley [00:31:37]:
That's great. It may sound simple, but I think it's those kinds of habits or rituals that really can shift things for people. I know I'm taking a walk after this.

Melissa Hall [00:31:49]:
Or even like going to sleep, right? Like there's a lot of research around that when you're trying to solve problems and it's— and you're really struggling. Yeah. Like two of the biggest things you can do are go for a walk or just go to sleep and wait for the next day. And it's almost like I think part of it too is giving yourself that permission to take a break helps. You know, you're like, okay, I'm taking the pressure off.

Natalie MacNeil [00:32:13]:
Yes. You need to slow the momentum. You need to slow the momentum and If you're driving a car and it's heading into a wall, you want to slow that momentum as much as you can before hitting that wall, not speed it up, not create more pressure and more stress and worry and anxiety. And sleep can definitely help. I'm getting a good rest. These are all practices in my next book. There's a whole new book coming about all of this.

Amber Hawley [00:32:53]:
I can't wait. When when is, is it coming out? In the fall, right?

Natalie MacNeil [00:32:56]:
Fall 2019. It's called The Rituals. I just announced the name a couple of days ago to only a few people.

Amber Hawley [00:33:04]:
I.

Natalie MacNeil [00:33:07]:
And I'm very excited about it. It's going to make a huge difference in in your, your daily life.

Melissa Hall [00:33:14]:
I love it.

Amber Hawley [00:33:14]:
I can't wait.

Melissa Hall [00:33:16]:
I know, because that's, I think that's like kind of full circle, like everything that you're talking about, because even a lot of the practices and the things that you're talking about are very personal, and yet they could apply to anyone's business, whether or not you are like the face of your business, right? Like, you know, with She Takes on the World, it's very much about Natalie McNeil, but all of the stuff you're talking about could apply if you had a company producing a product and you were not the face of the marketing. Right? These are all just personal principles or personal practices that you would have so that you are doing the best in whatever role you have, wherever you are.

Natalie MacNeil [00:33:57]:
Because whether you have a business that's built around your personal brand or not, whether you have a job, a project that you're working on, your family life, your like relationships, your purpose, your health, like you are the common denominator in all of those situations. You are there. Wherever you go, there you are. It's about you. It's about— goes back to that inner work and your own presence and your own practices that work for you. And what works for me may not work for you, but everybody needs that because you have to be filling your own cup first. And if you are filling your own cup and you are feeling fulfilled and you feel like things are flowing beautifully and you are serving people and you are doing your best work, like that spills over into every other area of your life, spills into all of your relationships and everything you're working on in your business. Like whether you have a personal brand business or not, you need to take care of you first. And that's going to give you fulfillment, it's going to bring you more success. More money, better relationships, more joy.

Amber Hawley [00:35:16]:
And I especially like that last part. I think that more joy in our lives is such a needed thing. I don't know, I guess I'm seeing so many people feeling so stretched out and stretched thin and just feeling kind of overwhelmed by things. So I think this idea of doing this simple but important thing of slowing it down and taking that space and stepping away is going to be such a helpful thing and reminder for people. Like, that's— it's— that's not saying you're leaving it, abandoning it, not working towards something. It actually paradoxically will help you actually grow that thing even more. So I think it's a great message, and I can't wait to read the book.

Melissa Hall [00:36:05]:
I know, I know. I'm super excited, and it makes a lot of sense with, I think, like, things that you've been talking about. And I, I do really appreciate your perspective about how you've been doing this for 10 years. And all of these things, I think it can be difficult in the moment to see how little lessons, or little, you know, what we might perceive as failures, or, or even experiences we might enjoy where we say, oh well, that was the shiny object of the moment, right? They do all serve a purpose, or they can all serve a purpose, and they all continue. And this experience you're having now, 10 years from now, is going to teach you and help you into whatever you're doing in 2030.

Natalie MacNeil [00:36:47]:
Yes, yes, it's just constant evolution. And I think what comes up for me when I listen to you say that is is we all need to find ways to enjoy the process and enjoy that journey. Because there's always going to be something else, there's always going to be new blind spots, there's always going to be things for you to look at within yourself and also things for us to be looking at collectively. Things are very different today than they were 10 years ago. There are so many learnings, there are so many There are so many things that have come out of the shadows in my own life and my business and also collectively. We're in this constant state of evolving. That that is, is life. We are constantly expanding. And if you can just find ways to feel comfortable in that space of discomfort and uncertainty and to appreciate the whole unfolding, that's when you can experience a lot more joy. And we practice, like last week I mentioned that I had a rough week last week. Last week was the kind of week that those tools that I have, those practices that I have really saved me last week. And it's why you put in that work. It's why you do the work so that you are prepared when things happen and prepared for things that are hard to move through and that really challenge you and bring you to your knees. Like you do the work for that. And there are some things that we can never be fully prepared for. And in that space, we just have to feel it all and then see is— see what what's there for us and know that we can move through anything. And that's— I mean, that's life and that's the human experience. We need the contrast. And that's one thing that I constantly remind myself of. We need weeks like the week I had last week to expand our capacity for the opposite, for joy. Like last week, there was pain and agony, and I had to dig really deep into all of that. And there was grief. And in that, as I'm coming As I'm moving out of that, it feels like there's this expanded joy in such small things. Like I went outside and it's the time of year here where there's a lot of butterflies and there's more butterflies than usual. Millions of baby butterflies are like flying through Los Angeles right now. And I went outside last week and I'd been pretty much inside for 3 days. Working with different people and therapists, and I went outside and was surrounded by hundreds of these little butterflies. And the amount of joy that I felt from that experience was probably among, like, top 5 most joyful moments I can ever remember. And it brought me to tears to be surrounded by all these butterflies and to just be looking around at so much beauty and seeing the blue sky, and it just took my breath away. And it was because of having been in, been in the pain and in the grief that allowed me to feel even more joy and presence in that moment that I found myself in. So the contrast is very important. If we didn't have contrast, we we wouldn't have the same appreciation and happiness that we're capable of experiencing. The contrast serves a very important role in our lives.

Melissa Hall [00:40:59]:
So powerful. I mean, I love— I hadn't thought of it in that way, thinking of it as this expanding the container. I I really, really appreciate that concept and framing difficulty in that way. I love it.

Natalie MacNeil [00:41:18]:
And we need it. If everything's going right all the time, is there, is there aliveness in that? Maybe, maybe. But life is, is so many different things, so many different emotions. And if we can be with what is and, and not numb ourselves, and, and on the other side of that, I think there is— it expands the capacity on the other side. And I see that again and again and again, not just in my own life, but in the lives of people that I work with and people around me.

Amber Hawley [00:41:53]:
I think you can tell why we adore Natalie. Yes.

Melissa Hall [00:41:56]:
Right.

Amber Hawley [00:41:57]:
I don't think you have to be a therapist to figure that out.

Melissa Hall [00:42:00]:
No, no.

Amber Hawley [00:42:01]:
But again, really helpful. I I think— think this is something where somebody should listen to this episode and really take that time to let some of this stuff sink in and ask themselves those questions. What is it that I'm looking for that I'm not getting right now? How do I— do I need to take that space for myself? Do I need to step away? Am I in that pressured place? I think there's a lot of powerful growth work to be done by just going back through those simple questions. Well, deceivingly simple, right? I know. Questions and to kind of take a moment to do that work.

Melissa Hall [00:42:42]:
Yeah. And I was wondering, Natalie, before we kind of like wrap up with how people can find out more about you, and of course they might want to check out some of your books since we've been talking about that, but do you have any like almost like a, like, you know, like we're supposed to do at the end of a podcast, like a call to action, but for people to do this self-reflection, like, is there any message you have for people? After listening to this.

Natalie MacNeil [00:43:05]:
Yeah, this is the whole new framework that I'm creating and building out right now that I'm just so lit up by, and it's not ready yet, so I can't do a call to action for you to dive into that specifically, but it is coming. It is coming. The new book is coming, which I'm very excited about. I often have people— one of the exercises I love doing is really taking inventory of everything in your life right now, and I have this practice of just sitting in— I visualize myself sitting in a movie theater and my life is playing out on screen. And I take note of challenges, situations, relationships, how I'm feeling in each of those, how I'm reacting or responding to those feelings, how I am showing up, what is triggering me, and really looking at everything in my life at that given moment. And then going through and asking myself what I need to see in that and where I might need to take personal responsibility, or where I'm reacting instead of responding in a situation. And am I being controlled by these emotional impulses? Or am I able to really Can I have empathy for the other person if it's that other person and recognize that we all have a different view of the world, we all have a different way of seeing things? And can I respond from a place of like me being in alignment and me being grounded and not reacting from an emotional place to that situation? Because too often we do that or we try to prove something to another person or prove that we're right and their way is wrong. Are there areas in your life where you can be more open? And can you look at a situation that maybe feels like a challenge right now and look at it from a more critical Look at, oh, perspective? that's— and look at it with curiosity too. Like, oh, that's interesting that I am that I did this one launch in my business and it didn't go great. So I'm thinking about moving on to something else right now. And there's this other thing that I want to start focusing on and really asking yourself where else that shows up in other areas of your life as well. Like, do you try something once and if it doesn't work out, that's it, move on to the next thing instead of getting feedback from that, letting the failure be feedback for you and then trying it again and trying it again and playing and experimenting until it is working or until you walk away from it at that point. Is there a relationship that has been triggering the fuck out of you? And I hope you don't mind the occasional F-bomb.

Amber Hawley [00:46:06]:
I, I'm sure our listeners can handle it.

Natalie MacNeil [00:46:12]:
If something is really triggering you, if a person is really triggering you, and let's say you're thinking about that person, if you can break it down into like one sentence, like, "He's not supporting me. I do not feel supported by him." Looking at where in my life am I not supporting me and how can I support myself more? Because it's our responsibility to to fill our needs and desires first. It's not the responsibility of other people to give us what we need and what we desire. And that's part of doing your own work. So I love playing in that space of like, what's working right now? What am I seeing if I just step back and watch my life playing out? And that's where I start. I start from that place of like exploration to really do that deeper work. And this will all be in a much easier process and format very, very soon. Very, very soon. And this is the next chapter of my work that I'm really excited about because I think we, we can only do outside what we're, we're doing inside. And what we're seeing outside is really a reflection of that inner experience. What we are seeing is how we are being.

Amber Hawley [00:47:33]:
Hmm.

Natalie MacNeil [00:47:33]:
What we are seeing is how we are being.

Melissa Hall [00:47:36]:
She just had to throw another little tweetable quote in there.

Amber Hawley [00:47:40]:
I know. There were actually two in that last little bit there. So I'm like, oh boy.

Natalie MacNeil [00:47:45]:
I'm in book writing mode.

Amber Hawley [00:47:46]:
I know. I was like, thank you so much for coming on today. I feel like, again, this is one where we're going to have to listen to it a few times and let everything really sink in. Lots of tweetables here. So thank you for that.

Natalie MacNeil [00:48:00]:
Thank you both. Thanks to everybody listening. And I hope you got at least one takeaway from this. Yes.

Melissa Hall [00:48:07]:
Yeah, I think if you didn't, then you weren't listening.

Amber Hawley [00:48:10]:
I was going to say the same thing. I'm like, yeah, at least.

Melissa Hall [00:48:13]:
How could that happen? Natalie, if people do want to find out more about you and if they want to like be alerted when your new book comes out in the fall, how would they do that?

Natalie MacNeil [00:48:25]:
Yes. So first of all, come visit us at she takes on the world dot com. You'll find all my books there and work and then follow me on Instagram for like up to the minute updates on the book and when it's coming out and when it's available for, for preorder. And we'll also have a lot of contests leading up to the book, giving away free advance copies. And you'll hear more about this next chapter and freebies that you'll be able to download to do some of this work. So find me on Instagram @NatalieMacNeill. It's M-A-C-N-A-T-A-L-I-E-M-A-C-N-E-I-L-L. N-E-I-L for McNeil. And send me a DM to DM me one of your biggest takeaways from this interview. I'd love to hear from you.

Melissa Hall [00:49:10]:
Awesome. Thank you so much. We would also love to hear your greatest takeaways. So we also have an Instagram. You can join us, tag us if you are out somewhere reflecting, you go take a walk in nature because you listen to this. And even if you simply have one of those moments of joy, I think that can be one of the most valuable takeaways from, from an exercise like that. So let us know, and thank you so much, Natalie.

Natalie MacNeil [00:49:37]:
Thank you both.

Amber Hawley [00:49:38]:
Thank you.