How to Cope with Entrepreneur Depression and Mental Health Disorders

00:00:24 - Maelisa Hall
Welcome to season three of the My Biz Bestie podcast. I'm Melissa Hall.

00:00:28 - Amber Hawley
And I'm Amber Hawley.

00:00:30 - Maelisa Hall
And today we are talking about a little bit of a heavier topic, but it's a really important one. And I'm sure we'll have a few laughs regardless at some point.
But yeah, Amber's looking like, duh. But... It is a really important thing that we actually did a Facebook Live on in the spring when there were two suicides that came up, Anthony Bourdain and Kate Spade, within I think it was like a week of one another.
And so mental health and suicide and depression became a popular topic right then. And we wanted to revisit this and go a little bit more in depth as far as mental health and entrepreneurship and what the relationship between the two are.

Because there's some really interesting statistics that mental health problems are more of an issue for entrepreneurs than they are for the general population. So if you're an entrepreneur and you're listening, you are probably more likely to have experienced some of these things.
Yes, odds are.

00:01:34 - Amber Hawley
Either you or your friends. Yeah, there was a survey done, an extensive survey of entrepreneurs. And In self-reports, 50% or it was 49% of the entrepreneurs said they had at least one mental health condition. And that was between depression, anxiety, ADHD, bipolar.
There was a whole bunch mentioned. And a third of those people had two or more conditions. And there's a lot of reasons that we would see this. There's a lot of positive qualities that are usually associated with people who become entrepreneurs. And those qualities also seem to overlap with a lot of mental health conditions.

00:02:17 - Maelisa Hall
Yes. And honestly, both of us fit into this category, right? Yes. We are both very open about the fact that we have ADHD. And although ADHD does not mean that you're going to become... depressed or suicidal, it is a risk factor for those kinds of things.
And like you said, a lot of people have more than one of these conditions. And a lot of these conditions overlap with all these characteristics of entrepreneurship and really impact... I think really impact our ability to cope with the things that can come up being an entrepreneur.

00:02:54 - Amber Hawley
Yeah, absolutely. And I personally have had a history of when I was younger, really struggling with depression. And I I think I saw it morph more into anxiety as I got older, which I always say to my clients, depression and anxiety are like two sides of a coin.
One is kind of more past focused and the other is a little more future oriented. So anxiety tends to be kind of like worry about the future. And so it's definitely something that impacts me and that I'm aware of. And like you said, with the ADHD, there's a lot of overlap with that as well.
And so, yeah, I do think it's a super important topic to talk about. And there's just the inherent struggles. Even if you're not somebody who had that in their history, there's a lot of things about entrepreneurship that can kind of exacerbate or bring out those things because of the ebb and flow in business and the isolation, which is why we started this podcast, for people to feel very lonely.

And maybe it wouldn't be categorized as actual depression. But often, I see that a lot. And so there's just a lot of different, again, positive qualities that happen or occur with people who are entrepreneurs, but they can easily slip into that place where they become problematic as well.

00:04:13 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. And so often, whatever you have that is a strength or a weakness, like you're saying the two sides of the coin, there's usually a negative to it or a positive to it. right? Yeah. For example, I always talk about how actually my ADHD makes me really focus on my time management and productivity.
And ironically, it is why I have my business that I do, right? Helping therapists with their paperwork. People are always shocked. I am not the poster child for organization. And I am not the person who's labeling things all the time and doing all of that.
That's not me. But I had to figure out a lot of things early on in my career, because of those weaknesses, I had to do a lot of things differently that now help me with teaching other people how to do that.

So now I can have a business from it. So that's a weakness that became a strength. And on the flip side, being really creative is an amazing thing. And yet, it can also become a weakness because... You don't focus.

00:05:15 - Amber Hawley
You don't follow through. You start things and you don't finish them. Yeah, absolutely. And so... Yeah, I think definitely it's both ways. And yeah, maybe people only talk about the one side of it. But yeah, like you said, negatives can become positives too.
But we definitely see this, like, we'll speak to, I guess, ADHD a little bit. That is, again, a very high prevalence because I think a lot of people that I see with ADHD, there's also been this history of being told like, You know, you're lazy or you're not doing enough or, you know, having problems, whether that's because of their hyperactivity and acting out.
So they're getting negative feedback in school growing up or, you know, they are impulsive. And there's so many different things where you might be getting a lot of negative feedback, both at home, at school and in jobs and struggling to kind of fit in.

And what ends up happening from that is I see a lot of adults with ADHD who feel, who have low self-esteem, who feel like they're lazy, and then they end up overcompensating and being like workaholics. And I see a lot of perfectionism that goes along with that as well.
And so it's like taking all of that feedback and the people who are struggling and they're really trying to make it better or be better, but then they go so far that They can never have anybody help them. They can never... Partially because they're a little disorganized, perhaps, but also because they feel like a failure.
They think like, oh, I have to do this all myself. I have to prove that I can do it. Well, if I was just on top of things, I would be able to do all of this, which is something I hear a lot from both my clients, but I'd say it too. I have that there until I really kind of check it out with myself a little bit.

00:06:53 - Maelisa Hall
Oh, yeah. And then there's even the flip side too, where... particularly with ADHD, you don't really hear this with depression and anxiety, but you'll hear this message that like, oh, okay, well, we're going to flip it and we're going to make it positive.
And so we're going to say like, ADHD is your superpower. And the goal is to create this positive message. And I get that. Use the parts of it that come naturally to you. Use what is natural to you and use that to your benefit. But What people, I think sometimes they swing the pendulum too far the other way.
And yes, there are things I can use that could be considered a superpower, but it is a problem for me. It causes problems in my life. And that is why I take medication for it. There are parts of it that are negative. And I have to be willing to look at myself and acknowledge those things.
And the times when I find I get into the most trouble with it are when I try to avoid that when I say like, well, no, I'll just, I'll figure it out or I'll just overcome it.

Or like when I'm not honest with myself anymore.

00:07:54 - Amber Hawley
Yeah.

00:07:55 - Maelisa Hall
And I'm not honest with myself, like this is a weakness. So I need to figure out how that's going to, how I'm going to manage that. Whether it's through like time management techniques, whether it's through medication, whether it's through hiring other people out.
But first I have to acknowledge that this is not my, like I am not doing this well before I can figure out how to address the issue.

00:08:14 - Amber Hawley
Exactly. And that's, I like that. guise of owning it as a superpower. That's been something that's resonated with quite a few of my clients who are business owners and felt a lot of shame around their ADHD. And I do love that. But I think the only way to really embrace your superpower is being aware of your weakness.
And in the entrepreneur world, that would be outsourcing, right? So outsource it, delegate it, delete it, don't be taking on that stuff and thinking like, well, now I have the superpower, I can do it all. Because that would be like Superman saying like, well, kryptonite, actually, I can wear it as a necklace and get stuff done.
It's like, no, no, you can't. That's your weakness, Superman. You may not do that. So yeah, it is this thing where you got to, you, I think in order to embrace the idea of it's your superpower, you have to be willing to embrace the idea of you have these weaknesses, you must outsource.

Do not do them.

00:09:10 - Maelisa Hall
Yes. And also understanding if it's more depression or anxiety that you struggle with, because a lot of people, it's not like you experienced it that one time and never experienced it again. For most people, if you have been depressed at some point in your life, you might be depressed again, or you're more likely to become depressed after some kind of difficult situation occurs.
So know that about yourself. don't just think, well, I overcame this and I never have to worry about it again. I think this is where the addictions community is actually really good about how they talk about things because most of the time, their attitude is, hey, we're admitting that this is a problem for us and I am admitting that I know this is a problem for me and it's something I need to be cognizant of forever.

00:09:57 - Amber Hawley
Yes. You don't get cured from addiction. You're in recovery. And so the difference being that it could come back if you don't continue the self-care, if you don't continue to do the things that you need to do. And so, yeah, there's a lot of things that come up in entrepreneurship.
Like we said, the isolation, the uncertainty, like the ebbs and flows of business. And I think for a lot of us, when our business is doing well and we're in one of those flow states, we feel great and fantastic and on top of the world. And we're great business owners.
And then when an ebb happens... For a lot of people, that crushes them. And they feel like, oh, I'm terrible. And I'm a bad business person. And there's all these other things. And it's like, well, no. I mean, there are many reasons for an ebb. There are many, many reasons.
There's seasonal stuff. Maybe there needs to be a shift in your marketing. Or there's so many factors that go into that.

But I think when we attribute those things to our character or who we are, as opposed to this is just a fact of business... then it becomes really hard for people to separate that. And I see that's where people get really anxious or depressed. And then often...
Well, now that you mentioned addiction, often then coping in a very unhealthy way, right?

00:11:12 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. Because it's so easy to associate everything you do with your business with your own value or worth. Most of us are so wrapped up in the success of our business. And Even my husband talks about it. He used to think he would be a great entrepreneur, but then he sees me doing all this stuff and he's like, no way, because it's like having a baby.
It has to be something that you really, really love and you're really interested in, or else you would just go have a job, just like so many other things. So it's hard to manage that kind of passion and focus and also separate yourself from the success of that business when there are those ebbs and flows.

00:11:54 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely something that comes up. And I think, you know, like thinking about our audience, you know, you out there listening are a high achieving woman. So we know that that's a lot of the women that we hear from that are listening.
And we expect a lot from ourselves. And we, you know, with high achieving, there often is, again, a co-occurrence of like perfectionism and all of these other things that kind of come up in this feeling of, like in order to keep that going for everyone to keep believing that we need to never ask for help.
We need to know it all, right? We have to be on top of everything. And it's so unrealistic. And I think that's one of the things that keeps us feeling low and isolated or anxious or stuck is not being able to do that.

00:12:38 - Maelisa Hall
Well, because everybody else can, right? Like we perceive, like it just seems like everybody else is so on top of it. And it's so funny because it's one of those things where whether it's a Facebook group where there's a bunch of therapists or whether it's like another group where you're in a mastermind or where it's just a bunch of entrepreneurs or a podcasting group, you will always see like every few months, someone will post a really vulnerable post, right?
And they'll say like, hey, I'm really struggling with whatever this is and feel like I'm not doing well. and feel like I can't figure it out and I don't understand. And then it will always be one of the most popular posts and there will be hundreds of comments from other people saying, oh my gosh, I experienced the same exact thing.
Because everyone else is, but that's not what people are portraying.

That's not what people are putting out there. You're not going to talk about... Which makes sense. I'm not going to send... My business, I don't do business coaching for my business. So I'm not talking about the status of my business to my list or to my customers.
I'm just talking about my... I'm not going to bring that up to them. I'm going to bring that up to other people. But you have to have a really safe network. You have to have people where you feel safe to share that because it's a very vulnerable place to be in.
To be like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to pay my employees next week. Right.

00:14:01 - Amber Hawley
And something like that too, well, that involves money. So there's just a ton of shame that comes up for people around money. And there is this balance of, yeah, you don't want to seem like a complete shitshow because then you know people won't refer to you or they're like, oh gosh, she doesn't have her shit together at all.
And at the same time, you do need to be real about it. And That's why, again, the BizBestie relationship, the inner circle, why that's so important. But I do think why those posts are popular is because nobody's saying it enough. And maybe they have one person in their life that they feel they can tell that stuff to or can really comprehend it.
But it really does resonate with people. And I think there's this idea of always managing our impression with others, where I'm pretty sure we've probably mentioned this on a previous episode before.

But where people talk about having six-figure businesses. And I remember I went into one very large group and people were talking about it. And I was like, well, I think that whole six-figure thing is BS because I've had a six-figure business for many years, but I don't take home six figures.
Hopefully, I think this year I will, but it's just not... That's the thing. There's this miss... I think people misconstrue and use that to look good. And then of course, We look to others and we judge ourselves and we do compare ourselves to others.
And then that exacerbates those negative feelings about ourselves. Like, I'm not good enough. I'm not a good business owner. And I do think when money is involved, that's just that extra layer of difficulty and emotional shame stuff. And so many of us didn't get healthy ideas about money growing up.

I mean, there are exceptions, of course. But money mindset stuff is just huge. Yeah.

00:15:44 - Maelisa Hall
There's a lot of window dressing going on. Yeah. Even people who talk about how much they made from whatever launch, but not telling you how much they invested in that launch. Maybe they didn't actually... Which there was one lawyer who was talking about that.
And she was like, yeah, I made this much money gross and I lost money on it because I invested that. And I was like, oh, thank you so much for sharing that.

00:16:06 - Amber Hawley
That's awesome. Absolutely.

00:16:08 - Maelisa Hall
But also, I think the reason money is a big one is that that's such a good measure. That's our biggest metric for our business, right? We're obviously doing our business because we enjoy it. But we're also doing it because you have to make money because businesses cost money.
So you have to make money to do it. And if you... I think we talked about this in the Denise Duffield Thomas episode too. And as a woman, if you want your partner on board, a lot of times... you need to be contributing monetarily. And that's what is going to get your partner on board.
So there's also that pressure and that is the success metric that we're using most of the time.

00:16:48 - Amber Hawley
For sure. Absolutely. And I think it is about having that be the metric, but it's also like if we're not taking care of ourselves, we can't sustainably make money. Because a lot of us, myself included, I have to make money to support my family. I'm the primary breadwinner.
So this isn't a hobby. This is something I need to have done. And it is important. But if I don't take care of myself, then I'm not going to sustainably be able to do that, right? So the whole mental health piece, it's like, Yeah, you could be really caught up in the stress of that and the pressure of that.
But if you're not taking care of yourself, you're actually cutting yourself off at the knees.

00:17:30 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, yeah. And there's so many parts to that, right? You might have a great support system, but are you doing the things on your own? Are you still taking a vacation? regularly, which I know is something like you and I both know we need to do more.

00:17:43 - Amber Hawley
Oh, I'm holding out for October, my friend. I know. I'm holding out.

00:17:47 - Maelisa Hall
And paying attention to those things within yourself. Are you taking time to yourself away from your family or your spouse? And are you taking time to invest in your relationship, your romantic relationship that you have? All of these different things, they all relate to this.
Because if you're not taking care of all of that, you're going to be stressed out. And it's going to impact your business negatively. But ultimately, you don't want to be one of those people who ends up just like anyone who's working in a corporate job and has worked their whole life for some company and then feels like they got left out in the dust later.
You want to feel like this was something I enjoyed and that contributed positively to my life.

00:18:30 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. And I will say, this has come up with my couples, my clients in the last couple of weeks and where we're really talking about... Because I have a lot of clients who are business owners and there's a lot of workaholism in that, whether it's just workaholism or they have ADHD or they have something else going on.

00:18:48 - Maelisa Hall
I can raise my hand there. Yes, I know.

00:18:51 - Amber Hawley
And that's the thing. It's so easy to make that choice and there are many reasons why. One, I think we feel very confident and confident in our abilities. how we show up at work. And so when you're getting positive reinforcement, you're going to put more time there.
Two, because especially us... I mean, I think this goes more generations, but I'm going to say Gen Xers who have that work yourself to the bone work ethic. It's like, oh, if I work more, I'll make more.

00:19:19 - Maelisa Hall
Well, in millennials, it's the opposite. There's no boundary there. It's just all the same thing. You're never on or off work.

00:19:27 - Amber Hawley
Yeah, it's constant. And so there's just this constant demand on our energy and our time and this feeling of I need to be giving my business everything. And the problem I see with my couples is we say like, okay, well, if they have children, then it's, well, obviously, we have to take care of our children.
We have to, you know, feed them and take them places and do things like that and, you know, enjoy them. So they demand energy because they need us. Then there's our businesses or our work. It's like, we obviously have to give that energy because if we don't work, we don't get paid and then we don't eat, right?
So there's like huge stakes here. And then there becomes your own personal self-care. There becomes running your household. There's family stuff. And then there's your relationship. And so what ends up happening with the couples I work with is like, especially when they're actually healthier, connected couples, is they say like, oh, well, my partner understands.

My partner's supportive. They understand. They're here for me. And they're an adult and they can entertain themselves. So what ends up happening is they don't make any time for each other. And not because they don't want to, but because all those other demands have taken up so much space.
And if they don't have any good boundaries around the work part, you can continue to give, give, give to your business. But at a certain point, we don't ever look at what's the ROI of this or what is the long-term... cost in that sense. And I see people who have been together for 10, 20, 30 years, and they're so disconnected.
And with that comes lots of resentments and issues and problems because they just have been giving to everything else and not the relationship. And I think that's the problem is whether it's depression that takes you away from your relationship or workaholism or your anxiety gets in the way of you being able to enjoy your life and the people around you.

All of that is going to be a problem. And it's hard when you're stuck in it and you feel like you don't have options. But like you were saying about the corporate thing, it's like, but we're entrepreneurs. We do have options. We can set those boundaries, even if they're hard.
Like even if it means like if you have a brick and mortar store saying, I'm going to close on Sundays. And you could say, well, that's a big day and business wise. And I'm going to lose money. Well, yeah, you might. But are you going to be able to have a sustainable quality of life?
you know, like that stuff matters.

00:21:45 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. And it's crazy. It's all so interconnected too. Because I even think about my husband, like somewhat recently even was like, you don't have any hobbies anymore. And I was kind of thinking about it. And like, immediately I wanted to be like, yes, I do.
And then I was like, well, actually, I don't have that many hobbies anymore, you know, because like, Because I do enjoy... I genuinely love what I'm doing. I love business. I could read about business and focus on business all the time. I could go Gary V status.
I really do enjoy it. But I do enjoy a lot of other things too. And I'm a really creative person and a really artistic person. And it's kind of a shame that I don't let that... That I've lost connection with some of that side of myself. because I do know it's there and it's been such a big part of my life.

And there was a time and a place where when I had a full-time job and was starting my business where my time really was very limited and I had to cut some of those things out. But now I don't need to do that. But it's really about myself setting better boundaries and making a goal to pursue those things.
We should do a whole episode on Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert.

00:22:59 - Amber Hawley
Oh, yes.

00:23:00 - Maelisa Hall
Because I think there's part of that too where I think this helps with also disconnecting ourselves from our business a little bit so that we're not so emotionally impacted by those ebbs and flows as if we have other things to pour ourselves into. And it also, it's a coping skill too.
If you have art or writing or music or crafts or sewing, whatever it is, what did you enjoy doing when you were a little kid? What did you do for... Maybe you were really into sports in college. All of those things. What are these other things you do that bring you pleasure, that you enjoy, that you do just because they bring you pleasure?

00:23:35 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. And I would say for you, it was your nail stuff too. But then you went and monetized that. I know. And I'm like, maybe that was stupid. I told you. And then unfortunately, I do... Lately, I'm guilty of this too, because I always tell people, well, my hobby is My Biz Bestie, the podcast.

00:23:54 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, right.

00:23:56 - Amber Hawley
But no, it's true. And that's the thing. That is part of self-care. So sometimes, and I think we already talked about this, or did we record that episode for this season? We recorded really far in advance this time. So when I said October, I just want you to know this is August right now when we're recording, August of 2018.

00:24:12 - Amber Hawley
So it's not that I'm waiting another year if this releases after that.

00:24:17 - Amber Hawley
But yeah, it's... It is one of those things. Self-care is having hobbies and other interests, things that fill you up, things that make you feel restored or give you an outlet or make you feel connected to something else. That's really important. Self-care is also sleep.
It's eating well. It's exercising. It's taking care of yourself. Sometimes self-care is massages or girl's night out or whatever it is. There's so many things. Or time with your family. Having that time where you're not sitting there thinking about your to-do list or the emails you haven't responded to and just really shutting down and saying, okay, now I'm being present with the people I'm with.
There's a lot of aspects to self-care. And that's the thing. And those are some of the preventative or protective things that we can do for ourselves. to kind of help us if we have depression and anxiety or if we're just kind of predisposed to it.

00:25:10 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, for sure. And I think, I mean, I feel like we could talk about this for a really long time. Yes, we could. And there's so many things that are part of it. But I guess the big thing, like the reason we wanted to do this episode was to let you know that you're not alone if you have experienced some of these things.
And also to let you know, like your support system is a big part of surviving depression. this stuff and getting through it. I guess getting through it even better so that you don't feel like you're just surviving, but getting through it so you feel like, okay, this is doable.
I can make this something that's enjoyable. I can have a life that I feel really good about and that is sustainable.

00:25:49 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. And it's perspective because... 90% of all suffering is mental. That's a quote from the Dalai Lama. And it's about how you're looking at things. And we may not be able to change some of the realities or logistics of our life per se, but we can really find other ways of coping or looking at it different so that we're not as mired down by it.
And yeah, definitely use your support networks. Definitely think about self-care. And I know we did talk about overwhelm last season, and I'm almost positive we recorded an episode on self-care for this season. But this is the problem with bulk recording, yo, is we forget.
I wish I was one of those people who like, oh, it's episode 105 and blah, blah, blah. I can't even tell you if I recorded that episode or not.

00:26:32 - Maelisa Hall
Well, I know we did talk about self-care a little bit in last week's episode. about hiring, how hiring can be related to self-care. So this is maybe the other side of the coin. Right.

00:26:45 - Amber Hawley
And there's a lot of those things and there's a lot you can do. But honestly, if you're genuinely struggling with depression or anxiety, or even managing your ADHD, if it's impacting your life and your quality of life, see a professional. That's what they're there for.
It's like going to a personal trainer and when you're struggling to figure out how to be consistent with exercise and diet. These are trained mental health professionals out there to help you with this stuff because you don't need to just survive through it or struggle with it.
You need to go and seek help because it's amazing to see the transformation. When a client comes in and They're just really stuck in that, their way of thinking or the stress. I mean, stress is a huge one. The anxiety, the depression, whatever it is.

And to see somebody come out the other side because they needed somebody else to be giving them that perspective. And it does take time to make those changes.

00:27:41 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah. And if you feel like you have no one you can talk to, you can go to our contact form and ask us. And we're both mental health professionals. We can tell you where to go to find a mental health professional. But... ask... Reach out to your biz bestie or a good friend.
Because a lot of times you'll reach out to those people and find they went to therapy themselves and they know. Or they might know... Have a friend who's a professional who can help you figure that out. To bring a little... Because I miss pop culture.

00:28:10 - Amber Hawley
To bring a little pop culture.

00:28:13 - Maelisa Hall
I was listening to this interview with Jay-Z. And he was talking about how... he saw a therapist and how life-changing it was for himself and fixing his relationship and all that. But he said... And it was funny because the interviewer was like, so how does Jay-Z find a therapist?
And he was like, I asked my friends. And he was like, I asked my friends who I felt like were doing well and they had great referrals for me.

00:28:42 - Amber Hawley
And I found someone amazing. And if not, like you said, reach out to us and we'll see if we know somebody. Otherwise, we'll redirect you and you can Google in your area for whatever it is you're kind of struggling with. And hopefully, you find a good person.
If it's not the right fit, then move on to somebody else because fit matters. It really does. But yeah, we don't need to just tolerate this. We don't need to keep tolerating these feelings when it's beyond... Especially when it's beyond something like a temporary like, oh, I feel low because...
this shitty thing happened, or I lost clients, or it was my worst revenue month or something. If it's temporary, that's one thing. But if it's more long-term and it's true depression or anxiety that's getting in the way of things, then seek a professional.
That's what they're there for. And it makes a world of difference. You deserve to have a wonderful quality of life.

And that's, I think, one of the best things about entrepreneurship is we can create the life we want. And that's really up to us to follow through on that. Doesn't mean it's easy, but it's all within our choice and within our making. Absolutely. So hopefully, like you said, I feel like we could talk about this forever.
We could probably do another episode on like each single one of these things, depression, anxiety, ADHD, substance abuse, like all kinds of things, stress.

00:30:01 - Amber Hawley
Relationships.

00:30:02 - Amber Hawley
Relationships. We could definitely go in deeper, but we just wanted to start the conversation and we would love to hear from you. But if this resonates with you, I would really encourage you to share it with your friend, either your biz bestie or somebody you know that's an entrepreneur and just share it with somebody that you think could find this information valuable or just something to think about.
And we would really appreciate that. Spread the love. sharing is caring we'll see you next week