Deciding What’s “Next” in Business (and Life!) with Julie Fry

How do you decide what’s “next” for you, without falling into the trap of doing something because it’s what you’ve always done…or it’s what is expected of you. Or, even worse, sticking with something because doing something different would look like failure to others.

COVID has shifted life and business ownership for so many of us, and one of the gifts it’s given us is the ability to see what’s important to us. Time with family, taking care of our mental health, doing what lights us up (AND makes us a living) all come to mind.

This week on the podcast, Julie Fry is sharing why she sold her profitable and growing business, what prompted her to start her current business, and what she did in between. (Spoiler alert: She got a j – o – b. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Promise!)

Just because you’re doing something now doesn’t mean you have to do it forever. Our businesses change as we grow, and our lives and circumstances change as we get older. It’s time we embrace that change and make decisions that fit where we are and where we want to be.

Are you ready? Tune in now!

About Julie Fry

Julie Fry is the founder of Your Expert Guest, a podcast publicity and booking agency.

Her secret sauce is creating meaningful connections between people that become clients, collaborators, resources, mentors, and friends. Prior to Your Expert Guest, she founded a national networking organization supporting women balancing motherhood and entrepreneurship. She also honed her relationship-based sales strategies as the first employee for Chuckit!, the recognizable line of dog toys.

She’s passionate about supporting small businesses and helping experts share their messages with larger audiences. When she’s not working with clients, you can find her walking her crazy chihuahua-Jack Russell, having dance-offs with her kids, being mildly obsessed with Conan O’Brian, enjoying life with her husband, and listening to some of her favorite podcasts. Visit her website and follow her on Instagram and Facebook. You can also connect with her on LinkedIn.

Links & References

• Your Expert Guest
• Business Among Moms

Time Stamps

• [1:28] – Energy-draining lives and decisions
• [2:23] – The lies of the Sunk cost fallacy
• [5:03] – We’re constantly pressured to do things in a lot of different ways; hard
• [6:28] – Julie’s growth story
• [8:07] – You can’t just jump from thing to thing without stepping back
• [10:02] – The start of something new
• [11:34] – Giving space to divine inspiration
• [13:22] – Amber’s own hustle mentality
• [17:00] – What is success for you? What are your priorities?
• [17:41] – Be very intentional about how you’re spending your time, who you’re spending your time with
• [18:14] – Figure out what works for you
• [19:30] – What made us happen then doesn’t necessarily make us happy now
• [22:08] – Making the decisions to get you to the next step without freaking out
• [24:39] – It’s okay to get a job

Transcription

Amber Hawley 0:01
Business owners are increasingly being pulled in so many directions feeling like they aren’t reaching their full potential in business in life despite their type aways. With my background as a therapist, entrepreneur, and as a .com dropout with ADHD, I interview and coach high achieving business owners like you who want to stop struggling for success by using psychological systems, strategies, and the occasional care frontation.

Amber Hawley 0:27
This is the Easily Distracted Entrepreneur, your place to slay overwhelm, perfectionism, and shiny object syndrome so that you can get done what matters most to you.

Amber Hawley 0:36
Hello, hello, welcome back to the podcast. Today I have with me a very special guest and friend, who actually has been on the podcast before, the lovely Julie Fry. Welcome, Julie.

Julie Fry 0:54
Thanks, Amber. And it’s extra exciting because we’re in person.

Unknown Speaker 0:58
I know. It is I I can’t even tell you the last time I recorded in person, it was 2019. Yeah, sometime in 2019, where we recorded in person that’s so crazy to even think about that.

Julie Fry 1:10
I know. Right? So this is extra special.

Amber Hawley 1:13
I know. It’s so good. It’s so good. But I asked Julie to be on the podcast today because I think in the last few months, I’ve been hearing from so many people, so many entrepreneurs that are talking about feeling like things are happening in their personal life, and they’re trying to decide, or it’s happening in their business, and they’re trying to decide should I stop doing my business? Should I sell my business? Should I pivot? Like, what should I do? You know, or they have things that are going on that are taking all of their energy, and they just aren’t able to show up in their business. And I think people are all over the map. And and I’ve been especially hearing about people talking about should I get a job? You know, and what does that look like?

Amber Hawley 1:56
So there’s people in this process. And because you’re friends and I know your history, I know that you actually in the last couple of years went through this process of you know, having a business and then trying to decide like what your next steps were. So I wanted to have you on because I felt like we can talk about this, but also to have your experience and kind of your takeaways I think would be super valuable for people.

Julie Fry 2:19
Yeah, I’m excited to talk about that and share. Because like you said, I think especially now a ton of people are going through just life stuff. And it’s really hard. And especially if you have a lot of time invested in something. It’s that feeling of Well, I have so much time that I’ve already put into this, I need to just keep trudging through. And sometimes that’s not always the best answer. So we’ll go back in time.

Amber Hawley 2:46
I was like, first of all, I was like, Yes, I love that. Because that’s the sunk cost fallacy. Yes, right? That people it’s like, I’ve invested so much time or energy or heart into something. And so the idea of just letting it go, it feels horrendous, right? And that’s where you got to, yeah, there’s so many reasons why that might not be the best choice is to just stick with something because you’ve had it. But so many people are in this place because of the last year and a half has been unlike anything before. And you know, you may have had a business for 6, 10, 15 years. And sometimes I’ve heard more. And but things have shifted now. So right. So now let’s go back in time.Take me in your time machine.

Julie Fry 3:25
Let’s go back in time to we’ll go back to 2019 for the purpose of this conversation. Like we could go way back to the beginning. But the listeners probably only want to hear about this two year period. So in 2019, I had a business called Business Among Moms. It was a networking organization for women balancing motherhood and entrepreneurship. And I had that for six years at that point. And I was starting to get the murmurings inside of feeling like I wanted to do something different. And I was also starting to experience some personal, just stuff, I was starting to go down the road of depression, which I had never dealt with before.

Julie Fry 4:08
So it was not anything I had experienced before. And it wasn’t just it kind of just threw me under the bus. Honestly, I was on the cusp of turning 50 and I had had a chronic illness that I never really properly dealt with emotionally. And so I think that coupled with some of the stuff that you just just push down, it all bubbled up. And I got to the point where I really wasn’t capable of running the business anymore. And so I decided that the best plan of action for me would be to sell it. And that was really hard again, because I had six years into this business and it was very profitable. And it had chapters in different parts of the country and I had loved it until I didn’t love it anymore.

Amber Hawley 4:56
Right. And I think yeah, that’s so hard. too, especially if you’re in that place of like, things are going well. And I think there’s this idea to of, well, maybe I can figure out a way to have the business run its itself, quote, unquote, you know, so I can get this breather. And I think there’s pressure to do things in a lot of different ways. And so I could see where that would be really hard. But like you said, there’s, I think selling, I think of all the options when people feel like they could at least sell that that feels somehow that feels less horrible than just shutting it down. Right?

Julie Fry 5:31
It does, but there’s a lot of work involved with getting a business ready for sale. So I listed it with a business broker. And just, you know, it’s like putting your house on the market, there’s just a ton of stuff. And even more so when you’re selling a business. And ultimately, the person who ended up buying it was one of our chapter leaders. So it worked out great for her. And I felt this huge relief, I think, well, not just I think I know I did, and I’ve worked ever since I was 12. So like my first job, I sold newspapers. And then I picked up trash on the side of the road when I was 13 with my friend, and then I babysat. So like, I had never not worked my entire life. And I thought well, okay, so now I’m going to get a job, like that’s going to fix all my problems. I’m just gonna have somebody tell me what to do. And I don’t have to lead this organization anymore. So I, amazingly, in the middle of all of this depression, decided to go look for a job. And amazingly, I found a job, which still to this day kind of blows my mind.

Julie Fry 6:36
And it, it was a very small online business, but growing rapidly. When I say small, she just had contractors, and I was going to be the first full time employee. And so she brought me on as the Director of Operations, which I felt like, Okay, this will be a good way for me to utilize my skill set. And as you know, when you’re an entrepreneur, especially an early stage entrepreneur, you don’t really know what you need, until you get somebody in there. And within the first two weeks, I could tell that she really needed a VA or a virtual assistant, she didn’t need a director of operations. So it was super uncomfortable, because like, she asked me to send an email to somebody, and then she’d read it and then edit it. And I couldn’t handle that. So we we parted ways very quickly. And at that point, I thought, You know what, I’ve worked since I was 12 years old, I’m just gonna take some time to figure out really what I want to do next with my life.

Julie Fry 7:39
And this was February of 2020. So COVID was just starting to happen. And it was really nice to have that time to just sort of be and spend time with my kids. And then of course, they were home forever. But I think by to actually giving myself space and time to step back and go, okay, like, what, what really do you want to do next? It doesn’t, you can’t just make decisions in your life jumping from the thing to the thing to the thing without taking a pause and taking time to reflect.

Amber Hawley 8:14
See. And that’s actually something I talk a lot about in my membership and with my clients, because that’s actually what most people do is, and that’s kind of I mean, maybe it felt different. But maybe that’s what you did when you decided to get a job.

Julie Fry 8:28
Oh, yeah, I was going, I was like, oh the job will fix what’s wrong with me. That’s it’s my work situation. So I need to just totally change my work situation. Yes.

Amber Hawley 8:37
And when you’re in a place where you’re running a big organization, and it’s you know, grown, and it’s, you’ve been doing it a long time, you’re like, maybe I just don’t need the sense of responsibility. And that’s what’s going on. And but that is exactly what so many people do. And it’s like, go go go, next thing, and that’s very much a part of our culture. And especially because work is so much of our identity. And that’s where I’m like you it, it actually behooves you to take that step back to take that pause, and then reassess. And really do kind of that deep work of figuring out what is it I’m actually needing and wanting right now. But I think when you feel pressure, whether that’s financial pressure, or you have this type a work ethic, gogogo mentality, there’s this pressure of like, no, I need to keep going. I gotta go to the next thing. Yeah. And and yeah, you don’t give yourself that space.

Julie Fry 9:28
I certainly did not. That was not in my nature, and it’s still not, it’s something that I actively work on all the time is like, leaving whitespace in my calendar so that I’m not over booking myself. And I think I’ve actually gotten a lot better about that. But I took several months and with COVID and the kids being home, it was really nice to not have any other responsibilities for a while. And so, in that whitespace one morning, I was walking our dog and listening to a podcast asked and I was thinking about what I missed about BAM, Business Among Moms. And I remembered like I miss connecting people like that was really, probably my favorite part of having that business is when somebody new would come into the membership or an event. And we’d be talking. And my mind is just like a mental Rolodex. And I think about who that person needs to meet, and then I’d connect them. And most of the time, like, they would end up becoming friends or collaborate on something or become clients of each others. And it was just really, really rewarding.

Julie Fry 10:33
So I was thinking about that and missing it. And then I just had a thought, like, Oh, I’m listening to a podcast, and I love connecting people, I should maybe think about booking people on podcasts, because, again, at that time, it was the beginning of COVID. And I had a lot of small business owner friends that were worried about their speaking opportunities going away, because that’s what they use for lead generation. And I thought, well, this would be a great way to at least continue to get exposure for your business, without having to travel and go to conferences and speak at live events.

Julie Fry 11:07
And so I reached out to a couple of friends and said, Hey, can I just try, I’ve got this idea. I’m not sure if this is a route I want to go but let me use you as a guinea pig. And so I did that with one of my friends and got her on some podcasts and thought, you know, this is actually I really enjoy this. And so that is the business that I have now. So it’s a podcast guest booking agency.

Amber Hawley 11:33
Awesome. And, you know, there’s so much about having that space, that, that giving yourself that space allows for that creativity, or allows for those moments where it’s like that divine inspiration or something where it’s like this aha moment. And yeah, figuring out like, oh, this, this would be perfect. And this is, you know, what’s happening right now. And I love the idea that you’re like, hey, let me let me just explore and try this out to see if this is the thing. And then kind of go from there.

Julie Fry 12:02
Yeah, you’d think I’d finally learned my lesson? Like, I’m not just gonna jump into something again. So yeah, that was a really nice way to do it. And I really eased into this business and took it slow, and didn’t overbook myself. And so it’s been really, really great. But yeah, I learned a lot about myself in that process, for sure.

Amber Hawley 12:25
Yeah. And I guess when I think about you, that’s something that always stands out to me is, I feel that you’re really good about your boundaries. You know, even even years ago, when I met you, I think about like you even talking about, oh, no, I only meet with these people, like once a week. And this is where I have time. And I remember being in like, group chats with you where you would like, leave the group chat. And it wasn’t, it never felt insulting. I was like, I literally can’t be continuing. Like two people are just going back and forth like that. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And I’m like, Oh my God, that’s so brilliant. Leave the frickin group. Like, I love that.

Amber Hawley 13:02
But I feel like you’re somebody who’s always really thoughtful. And I remember you talking about this, I think when you and I had talked about working together, about like, Well, I only have room for like one more. And I’m like, Oh, my God, like that is so refreshing. Because for me, I think, because we have a lot of similarity. And I’ve been working since I was like 11. And have had always worked. And usually by the time I was 16, I was working at least two to three jobs at all time. Wow. And so I just it was always like, No, you gotta go, go go, it was very much a little bit that hustle mentality, because it was like, Oh, well, you got to make money when you can and like, like, capitalize on that.

Amber Hawley 13:44
And if I could go back in my 10 years of business, there were times where I would have made more money by stopping right and actually just being not like actually do it right. Instead of I would take on clients and then never bill them. Yeah, because I was too busy to actually bill them or I thought I did and but that’s a little bit the ADHD stuff. But you know, it was like, oh my god, like I’m either hyper organized, or it’s a shit show. So there’s like, no, in between.

Amber Hawley 14:12
But I remember like, I think that’s the thing, like being super thoughtful. And I have learned that it’s taken me many years and like you said, even the whitespace I’m so much better at it and yet there are still times where it starts to creep up. Like that was September for me like all these little commitments kind of creeps up, okay, step back, and they were all for my business, you know, but like, Okay, I need to take a step back. I need to what can I let go of because it’s, it’s just clearly it’s just too much which, you know, this whole Mercury in Retrograde or whatever the all technology go to hell did not help but I again, I think whenever anybody who’s gone through either a major bout of burnout or depression when they really take that in and say okay, but going forward, I’m going to make a different choice. Yeah, I think that That’s such a great lesson. And it’s, I think that’s the way to true success. I guess success. I’m thinking, you’re doing something where you’re happy. Yeah, right, feel, you feel you feel happy. You feel fulfilled and not just in constant stress mode.

Julie Fry 15:13
Yeah, yeah. No, it’s I when you say that you’ve been working since you were 11. And this is a total side story. But I think where that came from, for me this need to like always work. So my brother is seven years older than I am. And when he was always the expectation of my family, once you turn 16, you had to get a job in the summertime. And so I remember when I was nine, and he was 16. And he kind of refused to get a job. And my mom made his life a living hell. So I think and you’ll appreciate this as a therapist, I think that that just was so ingrained in me like, I will always work really hard.

Amber Hawley 15:51
Oh, my gosh, that yes, I do appreciate. Oh, it’s so interesting. And yeah, see, sometimes it’s those things, those like unspoken things. Like it wasn’t I mean, although that one sounds like a pretty clear, like, Yeah, this is, this is what you’re supposed to this is the deal. But it’s when you watch other people, and you’re kind of noticing that they didn’t like explicitly tell you something, but you’re noticing this thing or this pattern, and those things can be come super deeply ingrained? Because we’re not necessarily consciously taking them in. Yeah. But in your case, it’s sometimes it’s uber conscious, and you’re like uh no thank you..

Julie Fry 16:34
So yes, yes, I think that, you know, these last, the last year and a half, two years, whatever, it’s been really hard for so many people, and so many people’s kids. And it’s hard because we’re, we have to make enough money to provide for our families and all of those things. But the big learning for me was going from thing to thing to thing was not the answer. It’s really just taking time to really think about like, what is success for you? And like, what are your priorities? Knowing that, you know, our time here is relatively short. And what do you want it to look like? Do you want to be hustling around all the time? Or do you want to have, because my work life is very different than it was before. It’s my don’t work as much. And it’s a lot more relaxed. I miss some of the social. So we’re here at a conference together, which is so awesome. I did a lot of live in person events before but those are exhausting at the same time. So it’s nice to get to choose like, Okay, I’m gonna go to these in person events that I’m not hosting anymore, which is so great.

Amber Hawley 17:40
And that’s, that’s intentionality, right? Like, very intentional about how you’re spending your time, who you’re spending your time with, what you’re doing what you’re committing to. And I think that’s kind of the bigger lesson is, it’s about being intentional and figuring out what works for you. And you know, for lots of us, sometimes you have to do the thing or overwhelm yourself and then be like, Oh, that was too far.

Julie Fry 18:06
Yes, for sure.

Amber Hawley 18:08
Yeah. And I like I said, I, I wanted to talk about this, because especially lately, I have seen, you know, a lot of people that are talking about because of all the shifts that have happened in COVID. They’re like, I’m not making enough and I need to provide for my family. And so they’re like, do I get a job? And, you know, again, what does that look like? And so many people are feeling like this failure because of that. Yeah.

Amber Hawley 18:33
And so this was, even though your story’s a little different. You know, I’m like, I want people to understand that getting a job is not a failure at all, that’s actually making a really smart decision for your mental health. Because if you can get work, whether that’s part time or full time, and get some financial stability, and then feel like, okay, I’m not in survival mode, because, you know, when we think about, like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, you have to have that base of the pyramid, you have to have security and food and housing in order to kind of go up to the next level. Exactly. And so sometimes, and this happens, you know, like, you could be doing fantastic, and then you kind of get back to square one. And that doesn’t mean you failed, or you’re not a good enough business owner. It’s like, Hey, this is unprecedented times. And there’s no shame in that, no matter how long you’ve been in business,

Julie Fry 19:27
For sure. And I think that oftentimes to what made us happy at one point doesn’t make us happy anymore. Like I know several women that started businesses when their children were younger. And then once their kids were older, they really miss that community that you have in an office and a job where you’ve got a variety of different people coming together and some diversity and so they ended up closing their businesses and going and getting a job like a couple of people that were doing great in their business, but their business life wasn’t fueling them anymore emotionally. And so they decided to get a job. And in all of the cases, I know where they continued working, like it’s been the best thing they could have done for themselves emotionally.

Amber Hawley 20:13
Yeah, and I love stories like that, because I think we do need to talk about that and normalize it that that may, you know, it can be a hard decision, but sometimes it ends up being so much better than you could think. And, you know, there’s all I think, again, the only time we feel like it’s acceptable, it’s kind of like, the the .com era idea of like, I’m going to sell my business for millions and, you know, then it will be justifiable.

Amber Hawley 20:37
And, you know, I know personally, I’ve struggled with that in this last couple of years as well, because my intention when I moved was, I was like, Yeah, I’m ready to sell my group practice. But like you said, what people fail to understand is, that is a process. And they said, for group practices, in, you know, the medical field, the average is like, two years to sell it. Yeah, there’s authorized, yeah, all the prep stuff. And then, you know, finding the right people. And, you know, there’s just so much in that, and I remember starting the process, but I was super burned out when we moved across the country. And then I kept getting sick, because, you know, my immune system was in the tank. And, you know, so I was like, Okay, I’m going to get to and we’re going to get to it, well, then COVID happened, and then everything about my business shifted. And I was already in a place where I was kind of like, a little bit done, not like fully done, but just the love wasn’t the same, right? As it was before. And, you know, it shifted the workforce, because a lot of therapists are like, well just, you know, work out of my, out of my bedroom. Now, don’t need to take on the overhead. Unfortunately, for me, I had a very long lease.

Amber Hawley 21:46
So there’s all of those things, but that’s where I mean, as things have happened, or as like employees have moved on, and not being able to find people to replace them, which I know a lot of business owners are in that space too. If not finding being able to find, you know, the right people to work in your business. I have contemplated like every iteration, I thought, Okay, I’m gonna change it, I’m gonna start doing this, you know, luckily, I have really amazing smart biz besties. And people in my circle, kind of talk through some of the stuff and I was like, Okay, no, no, no, that’s like, shiny object, or that would be a whole different level of investment that I don’t want, because I actually have a business that I’m loving. Yeah, but because I need, you know, I’m growing it. And this business, this podcast, but the my group practice was always my bread and butter.

Amber Hawley 22:36
So it’s like figuring out like, how do you make the choices or how do you navigate that make the decisions to get you to that next step in a way that doesn’t make you feel like, I’m freaking out so much. I think I’m going to be homeless, like, you know what I mean? So yeah, I think it’s great for people to hear stories like this of, you know, sometimes you just got to make

Julie Fry 22:58
sometimes you just have to try the thing.

Unknown Speaker 23:02
Exactly Yeah. And I know, you said, like getting, you know, going and working for someone else. I remember shortly after you had done that, talking to me. And I don’t know if you remember saying it, but you were like, it was good, though. It was good to go to realize like, Oh, definitely that wasn’t it. It was like you can check that one off.

Julie Fry 23:23
And check that one off. And I am truly unemployable.

Amber Hawley 23:28
Because we all have that fantasy, right? Like, I mean, we I think we’ve all been there. I think for me, it happens less and less. But I will say in the last year and a half I have been like, maybe I should just go work in somebody else’s business and then not have to worry about all the other things. The responsibility.

Julie Fry 23:44
Yes, yes. You just show up and you like, know what you need to do. And so it needs to be some kind of low level job that pays a ton, which there’s so many of those out there.

Amber Hawley 23:53
Yeah, I was like, I guess I didn’t think low level. I want somebody to know my magic. And then just like, pay me consistently so that I could just show up and do my magic. Like, I want to do that. But then I realized like, no, I probably I mean, I might entertain it for like an hour or so then I’m like, No, I mean, I could just do this like, no, yeah, fun. Yeah.

Julie Fry 24:18
Yeah. And who knows? I mean, that’s the beauty. I think of living in the era that we do. Now. We versus our parents, you know, my dad worked for the same company his whole entire career. Whereas I think now it’s expected that you’re going to have a variety of different careers and work a number of different places and try a bunch of different things and that’s okay. So

Amber Hawley 24:38
For sure, yeah. And I and I definitely have people in my you know, extended circle and friend group, they that they did make the decision to go work for somebody else, but they, but it was the perfect that job was what you described. It sounded like she was somebody who was she wasn’t ready because she was micromanaging. She wasn’t ready to really let go. She didn’t know how like she didn’t really understand what she she didn’t really know what she needed. She didn’t know what she needed. And I would still say even if you have a VA, if you have to be hyper, on top of that, like, oh, but But yeah, I think, you know, I’ve met quite a few people who they did that. And they’re like, so happy because it’s about finding the right fit for sure. And some of them decided to put like, either put a pin in their business for a little bit while they got like, kind of ramped up and acclimated. Others just closed their business. And I know some that were like, I’m just going to do this as a very part time side hustle. So I like when we we realize the more and more like, let’s stop putting ourselves in a box.

Julie Fry 25:41
Exactly. Yeah, when you mentioned that I know several women that have taken on a part time job to get them through a rough patch or a slow patch in their business. And then that got them to the place that they needed to be. And then they were able to go back to their business and be more kind of full time in it. So it’s I think you just have to listen to your intuition and do what makes sense for you at the time.

Amber Hawley 26:05
Awesome. Well, I really thank you for sharing your story, because I think I’m hoping that I can’t even imagine that there isn’t somebody out there that’s kind of thinking about all this stuff and struggling to figure out like, what is the next iteration of my business or my life? Like, what is it how you know, because like you said, different stages, we go through these changes. And what filled us up before may not do that now. So yeah, thank you. Thank you for coming on.

Julie Fry 26:32
My pleasure.

Amber Hawley 26:33
Sharing your story. So if people want to find out more about you, because obviously I think you’re pretty fantastic and same same. And just note that I felt so lucky that I was able to get in with Julie like back in the back last year, where she took me on as a client. I was like, Oh, I was the last one and then she like closes, she likes to shut that slams the door shut on taking new people and then she would open it up and shut it. I was like thank God I was in. But where can people find out more information about you?

Julie Fry 27:06
Best place is yourexpertguest.com

Amber Hawley 27:09
Wonderful. Well, thanks again. Julie. And we are going to go enjoy our in person podcasting conference right now.

Julie Fry 27:17
That’s right. All right. Thanks, Amber.

Amber Hawley 27:20
Thank you. And just a reminder that this is the last few days for you to write a review on your favorite podcast player, take a screenshot and email it to me at amber@amberhawley.com so that you can be entered into all of my awesome giveaways. So I can’t wait to hear from you and remember to send me those reviews because I want to give back to you as well. And happy, podaversary celebration month.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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