Conscious Leadership: Unlocking the Power of Waterfall Habits with Jen Hope

Business owners are increasingly being pulled in so many directions, feeling like they aren't reaching their full potential in business and life despite their type a ways. With my background as a therapist, entrepreneur and as a.com dropout with ADHD, I interview and coach high achieving business owners like you who want to stop struggling for success by using psychological systems, strategies and the occasional carefrontation. This is the easily distracted entrepreneur, your place to slay overwhelm perfectionism and shiny object syndrome so that you can get done what matters most to you.

00:00:39

Hello. Hello my focus seeking friends. I have a great episode for you today. I speak to the wonderful Jen Hope who is an executive and leadership coach for Impactful Startup Leaders. And what made me particularly interested in talking to Jen is not only is she a mental health advocate, she's passionate about creating safe spaces for females and neurodivergent people in startup and corporate leadership, but she also talks a lot about emotional regulation and creating waterfall habits as leaders in helping us more effectively show up as the leaders that we want to be and absolutely can be.

00:01:24

So it's a very empowering episode. We cover so much. I'm telling you, it's worth it, it's worth sticking through the whole 50 minutes, but it's a really good one. And I like that we really get into strategy as well as understanding why these things are challenging. I also wanted to mention that we still have a few spots left in the Incubator.

00:01:51

The Incubator is a six month program that has been designed. It's a hybrid between group coaching, accountability and individual coaching all around, helping you either scale systematize or grow a separate income stream for your businesses. And what's really great about it, beyond all of the touch points you get throughout the week and the level of accountability and support that you get, the things that people are mentioning that I find surprising, the members themselves is talking about what a validating experience it has been for them. And also the sense of community, having a small group so that it's not overwhelming. Hello, we're neurospicy but also having people who really get the struggles and understand why things that are challenging to us are challenging to us as neurospicy people.

00:02:51

If you would like to find out more information or book an information call with me, head on over to Forward slash Incubator. I would love to meet with you. Hi Jen, so excited to have you here today. Hi, great to see you. Yes, I am really excited about this conversation because trying to think I know we've talked about leadership before, but this is something in the years of doing business and working with business owners, we know that employees tend to be the biggest pain point and some of the hardest stuff that people have to deal with.

00:03:31

And then you add in being neuro spicy and it's already sometimes enough just taking care of ourselves so it can feel a little overwhelming. So when I saw that you talk about conscious leadership for people with ADHD, I was like, oh yes, souls, we need to have this. I'm so excited. This is one of those topics that I really geek out on. I really love talking about leadership.

00:03:57

I don't know that everyone has a great definition, even of what leadership means. How do we even break it down? What does it look like? What are some of the traits of it particularly effective leadership? How do we actually do that?

00:04:12

And how do we break it down into skills we talked about just briefly before we started recording, like strategies and tactics? We don't always have a great definition, so this is super fun for me. So thanks for letting me talk about things that I'm really excited about. I love it. I know I was going to have you introduce yourself, but I'm like, oh, well, I read your bio in the intro, because now that you said that, I'm like, I had that awareness, I think, gosh, was it two years ago or it feels like time is so elastic.

00:04:41

I don't even know when time yeah, I think it was in 2021 because I would talk about the challenges I was having and I was ready to down my brick and mortar business, like years before I did it. Finally did that last year. But in 2021, I talked about I was talking with somebody and saying how challenging it was and I don't like being a leader. And as we dissected it a little bit, it was like this awareness and this light bulb went off and I was like, no. Being a leader I love.

00:05:10

I don't like managing people. That was like a totally different thing. So you're right. I think we don't I think it's just so convoluted and nobody really talks about that. So what is your definition of leadership?

00:05:26

I think leadership breaks down into what are the skills that we have and how effective are we at a couple of different areas, like relating, self awareness, authenticity, systems awareness, how do we achieve results? Like some of those pieces? And then there are different ways that we understand how to do each of those things. Like how likely are we to be somebody who's a selfless leader? How great are we on that internal self awareness piece around balance, composure?

00:05:55

What does it look like? Are we able to be authentic at work? Do we have some of that ability to walk our walk, talk or talk? And are we a lot more task oriented? A lot of folks, I think, kind of run this interesting balance and we all have our own makeup of being more relationship oriented or more task oriented.

00:06:14

If we're super relational, that sometimes comes with a little bit of its own, sometimes shadow side. I don't know how you feel about the Woo shadow side of things, but like the shadow of being relational. We can be sometimes complying or passive. Right. That can get in the way of some of our achieving and results.

00:06:32

Right. On the other side, where we're more task oriented, sometimes we can get controlling on that side. Right. We can get perfectionistic on that side. And so, I don't know.

00:06:41

I think there's a lot of ways that we could look at the skills of breaking down effective leadership, and then that being the makeup of how developed are we? How developed are you at being the kid you were at the beginning of your life to who we are as an adult? How far have we progressed through those stages of adult development and landed in, hopefully, effective leadership of self right. Like us at the center and then all these other things on the outside of it? Oh, my gosh, already?

00:07:10

I'm like, where were you so many years ago? Because as you said, that well, first of all, the shadow side, that to me is just psychological terms. That's not woo. Okay, great. I'm all for woo.

00:07:21

I say I'm singularly. Woo. I'm not woo woo, but I'm like half science, half woo. Although then I realized after living in California for 22 years, I'm pretty fucking woo because I've done it all. But no, when you were talking about that, and I was immediately like, oh, yeah, I'm the relationship.

00:07:39

I'm relationship oriented. And then you said, the challenges. I was like, that's what I hated about it is I felt like it was so hard to well, on one hand, being somebody who's ADHD and growing up and having my emotional outbursts all the time. Then I swung the pendulum of is it okay for me to be upset about anything as a leader? And so I would have my little meltdowns personally.

00:08:07

And then I felt it was too passive. That was the thing. Right? And so it just became like, why do I have to tell you this? Can you not just know it and do it yourself so I don't have to do this?

00:08:18

Yeah. And if we're self critical and we have to give feedback, we're in such a tough spot that's pulling on two sides of the same rope almost, where we know that we have this feedback to give. We're aware of it internally. Right. Because especially if neurospicy to your point, there's sometimes a strong intuitive sense of what we need to do, and I'm going to speak for myself on that.

00:08:46

And the difficulty of how do I do this without emotion? How do I do this in a way that is objective and clear and then not kind of like that Whack a Mole piece where we have a tendency to beat ourselves up about how we did it, right. Like, that. I know I got to raise my hand for myself as a leader was something that I would always leave conversations being like, Did I do this well enough for that questioning and playing it again, that self critical that we can sometimes do. I think everyone experiences that.

00:09:19

Absolutely, yeah. Not just neurospicy, but like you said, in some realms. And this is what I think is always interesting about personalities and human behavior. It's like, to know as a therapist, I know how to have hard conversations, right? And so I can have certain hard conversations.

00:09:40

But then there would be those ones that, like you said, tap into something, maybe that even myself I'm struggling with. And then those are more challenging. And so looking at yourself as a leader, realizing when I admit something's a struggle for me, it doesn't mean I'm a total shit show at it. It just means that there are those times and I realized me not being willing to push that edge was the part that made me want to bail out of the whole thing. I'm just going to be a solo person.

00:10:13

I just want to work by myself in a cave. And I think it makes me think about RSD rejection sensitive Dysphoria, because that gets really triggered and it feels really real and big and raw when we feel like we've let people down or that they're upset with us. And so that feeling of I'm about certain things, you're like, oh, well, that's just obvious duh, I don't care. And you just don't think twice about it because it's not in that, but other things where it feels like sensitive and you're worried about somebody feeling a certain way, it can be really hard to have those conversations. Yeah, I was just talking to someone about this yesterday, in fact, where as a part of their role, they get really regular feedback, like semiannual feedback from hundreds of people about their work, thinking about the ritual of that, of like, okay, I'm going to get this feedback.

00:11:10

I know it's coming. It comes twice a year. And there being a whole way that they kind of landed themselves in a little nest of self care to manage through that process. Right. And to be able to okay, I'm going to sit down.

00:11:27

I know this is coming. There's going to be call it 96% great feedback, and there's going to be the 4% that we focus on, of course, that says, like, oh, this is painful. Let's go dig into that. Right? Let me double click on the eight people who said that they really hate me.

00:11:43

Like, oh my gosh, exactly. You're like, forget everyone else. Exactly. But just the way that I really loved the idea of knowing that that feedback was coming and having a plan for what that's going to feel like. And we don't get that luxury all the time.

00:11:58

Right. Like this is somebody who has that in a scheduled way. But even thinking about that around reviews or thinking about that around either annual reviews or kind of mid year reviews as a way to say, okay, if my ambition is x. And I want to be this great at what I'm doing. What's my capacity to care for myself and be able to manage some of that feedback that I know that can kind of get under my skin and really throw me for a loop.

00:12:28

How do we take care of that? Because it's this blessing, right, that we care so much and it's so lovely and it makes us so wonderful at what we do and who we are. And I think, to your point, feels like nails on a chalkboard when it's happening. Absolutely. And I guess working with so many people that were especially thinking in my therapy practice because being in Silicon Valley and working with a lot of executives and startup people and managers, seeing the side of it where they're really struggling emotionally.

00:13:09

And so it's like they know they need to do it. They're great at their job. And I've seen so many people kind of like what I felt like doing, right? Is like, I want to opt out of this. And so they would do different lateral positions and wouldn't move up the chain because they just were like, this is so hard.

00:13:29

I guess in every job I had before becoming an entrepreneur, I worked in management or leadership always. And it felt so different when it wasn't my business. And I think that's the extra layer for business owners because I remember having to give employees feedback or having to fire somebody, which is never fun, right? It felt so different. It feels so raw as a business owner when I've had to do that, that just feels so exposed.

00:14:00

So I'm guessing the people listening are business owners, right? And so I feel like it adds this layer because it feels so deeply personal and then it can bring up a lot of anxiety and worry and. That kind of thing. Do you see that with people that you work with so much? So much, though.

00:14:21

And I think I would say some of the pressures, too, of some of the folks that I interact with at times, they're building companies. I work with startup organizations as well. Right. I'm sure you've seen this as well, where these folks are working on products or solutions that are truly disruptive, like are changing healthcare, right. At its core, they're doing scientific work, right?

00:14:48

Like working in biotech and creating and finding research and doing research and finding for solutions for things that are beyond what I think I could feel in my body, the pressure of it. But I don't know that I could truly experience what it's like to be in that scenario day to day, where, like, yes, you're running a lab, and that is stressful. But the nature of the work, right? The nature of I'm changing the future of XY vertical that also layers into this as well, right? Like AI.

00:15:18

Like, there's so much of this where I mean and that's not to say that like, you know, owning a retail business is also really freaking hard and letting go the employee that you've had for five months or 15 years or making changes, that that becomes deeply personal in a totally different way. And these people have been invested and some of the folks I work with run family businesses, right? And we've got kind of that like CEO and child thing at play, owner and child, parent child situation. And I think it's all at its root. I think it's deeply personal in really unique ways.

00:15:56

All of it important, I think at its core to these folks, either from an innovation perspective or the impact perspective or the impact that we're going to have on the individual that we're talking to, particularly when we know them well, it's at its root. It's at our own root of vulnerability. At core. I think that's it too right for a lot of it is that vulnerability piece where it feels extra vulnerable. It's just you as opposed to your corporate or I worked in the.com world, there still feels like there's still some more support but when it's just you, that's really tough.

00:16:37

But to your point, I love that you're mentioning these caveats because these are, I think like you said, the layers we don't think about. When I think about people who are doing really innovative work and especially startup, we know they're working a ton. They're doing multiple roles. I mean, we do this as business owners anyway. We wear so many hats.

00:16:56

But the problem becomes we're so living at the edge of our bandwidth. So then to have to deal with employee stuff or to have to lead or have to be how can I be a good leader? Put effort into that. Show up for people, show up for the people that work for me and then also have to be responsive and take their stuff in when you feel like you have nothing left to give, right? Oh yeah.

00:17:26

Does it sound a little bit and I don't mean this in a disparaging way at all about management, but does it feel a little bit like parenting? I 1000% use that analogy all the time. I was like I don't mean it in a disrespectful way towards employees or your team. I don't mean it as like a degrading kind of thing. But it feels like that because it's like because their needs come before yours.

00:17:54

That's how I think of it as a parent. It's like you're going to still have needs, you're taking care of things and then out of nowhere it's like demand of attention, energy, something, right? And it's like you have to put their needs before yours. So I always make that analogy. I think too about this well that we have as parents of my willingness to give to you.

00:18:20

Right. It's really selfless and my willingness to give to what you need at the moment. And I think about as parents where we can come home and be like as you're transitioning, even if it's like walking down the stairs or whatever, you're thinking like, oh my gosh, do I have it? Do I have to give what these people need right now? I think the same thing can happen.

00:18:40

You open your computer in the morning, you're like, oh my gosh, do I have what these folks need today? And that willingness, that ability to dig into another well that you really didn't think you had and to still show up. I think we find ways. Again, we had talked about talking about our habits, and this is where, like, goodness gracious, I hope that water, that's full of water that well today so you have somewhere to go and the energy, the emotional bandwidth to give to some of these other people right. Where yeah, you're running on a timeline or on a runway or before the next reorg or whatever it is, product launch, release, name your thing, right.

00:19:29

And getting to that while still being able to serve, I guess it is in the way that these folks need and have the interpersonal bandwidth to lend the support that is required. It's a big, huge, gigantic job. Huge, yeah. Yes. And we know how important it is because I also know the value of having an amazing team and how powerful that can be in helping you grow your business and grow your impacts that you're reaching.

00:20:04

But, yeah, it is a challenge. Right. Because it is a whole nother hat. And well, I always felt like if something was going to go wrong, it was always when I'm on vacation, always somebody had a cris when I was on vacation as a business owner or it always feels like the worst timing. Although, whatever.

00:20:31

I'm sure we just forget the times that we had the bandwidth and we showed up and we did it. Like, we handled it.

00:20:38

What are some of the things that you advise for people, like those habits or how did they take care of themselves to have that bandwidth? Yeah, I mean, there are things that we know, right. Some of them are knowing the seasonality of our work and really being able to zoom out and look at some of this. I work with quite a few folks in tech. I work with lots of folks in real estate as well.

00:21:04

And one of the things that we do is really look at the seasonality of that or look at the rhythm of the business. And I have folks really think about that so they can think for themselves about how to plan for peaks, how to appreciate and really lean in in the valleys and be thinking about, like, I don't know, pick your thing. Like there's a board meeting every quarter, right? Well, we know that the three weeks that lead up to the board meeting or two weeks that lead up to the board meeting are a bit of a whirlwind, right? And we're going to have extra things landing on our plate.

00:21:40

And that pre planning aspect where I have to block this out, because if I don't block this out, I do this whole additional part of my job from 08:00 P.m. To midnight. And so what do we do? How do we plan in advance to give ourselves a three hour, two hour, 1 hour block of working time to be able to do that in advance? And the same thing goes for whatever the seasonality is for your business, right?

00:22:05

I work with other folks who are in accounting functions in larger tech organizations. For them, it's the end of December a little bit, and then January or February, they're running sprint, right? So come March, April, how do we start pouring back in? What does it look like when we pepper in an eight hour day? Imagine, right?

00:22:26

Imagine an eight hour day when we start peppering in 7 hours today. Holy moly. Right? Or the day that you clocked out early because you work 15 hours a whole bunch of days in a row last month and also took a week off. And also took your weekends off.

00:22:46

But it's that it's really knowing that if we're going to perform at X level, which we can do for a given period of time, there's support on either side and there's planning on either side, right? Because there's only so much the well is only so deep. And then we're going to run on fumes.

00:23:07

If we're really going to try and be that high performance, which I think is what a lot of these folks are trying to do, then myself, I think a lot of us are trying to do, right. We have to be able to do the maintenance that is required for that kind of an engine. Does that 100%. Yeah. And actually, I was thinking that's part of I have a program called the Incubator, and that's a big piece of it to me.

00:23:36

I don't know what you I want to say bread and butter, but I don't know if that's the right analogy. It's like the crux of it is the planning, because as neurospicy people, executive functioning and planning can be a challenge, right? And there are some people who are still like, I'm a type A virgo. I love to plan. It's like my thing.

00:23:56

And we know, though, that when I'm in stress, I can also get into that place where I'll overload myself because it's like, oh, I can just do it all. We think we can just do it all. And that's the piece where every week we have planning, every month and every quarter we have planning. And like you said, it's really looking down the road and acknowledging like, oh, I have these big things coming up. And for them, it might not be like a board meeting, but it might be like, oh, my in laws are visiting for two weeks and it's May.

00:24:28

May is always a shit show with school. I don't know, like, all the ending of sports and schools. And I just feel like May is an extra struggle. There's all these additional things you have to do and then they always have to throw in, like Spirit Week. During May, I was like, well, yes, please add in that I didn't do the laundry or I didn't remember to give them a certain hat or something like that.

00:24:50

But it is looking at stuff like that or even spring break or even holidays. This was something that's been so intriguing as we've been doing this weekly planning in the group. It's like, you realize as entrepreneurs, I think we're like, oh, I'm going to take that day off, so I'm just going to move all my work into four days, as opposed to actually giving ourselves extra rest or fun or downtime. It's like we just think, well, let me just cram it all in. So I think planning is actually probably one of the biggest pieces of self care that somebody can do.

00:25:27

Yeah, I think there's that big picture and then there's the in the moment, too, where I don't know if folks use their in the moment skills for stuff where they really could, right? Where I'll give you an example. We have a tough day and we're a tough meeting even, right? Like in that very moment, you have a tough meeting. You get some difficult feedback.

00:25:53

You have to give difficult whatever it is, right. Somebody's like off on a tear one day, whatever it is. And in that moment, I think it's so easy to pick up your phone. It's so easy to say, that's how I'm going to change gears versus what can I do right now that will actually allow my nervous system to reset a little bit, right? Like if I took four breaths before I did whatever next, well, then pick up your phone, right?

00:26:22

Fine, whatever you're going to do. But if I do that in the moment thing, like pour myself a giant glass of ice water and drink that out of a straw for a minute, some of those in the moment things I think people dismiss as like, your dumb water is not going to help me in the know. Jim, I am having an awful day, and four breaths isn't going to fix it. Well, you're totally fucking right that the breath is not going to fix it. But what it might do is give you the capacity to deal with whatever happens next, right?

00:26:57

Or to give yourself a tiny pause before you do the thing that leads you to then blow up at your kid or whatever. The next thing is. That layers on top of it's, just like that. And I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but the stress reduction aspect of our physical body. I think folks dismiss that as too small to make a difference.

00:27:24

And I preach it all day long. I know. I'm so glad you do four breaths. People are like, Are you serious with this? I'm like, no, we'll do it together.

00:27:34

I'll take four breaths with you and I'm like, if you feel stupid for yourself, if it feels silly, I'll do it with you. Right? Whatever I have to do, get folks a little bit more capacity for ourselves because it's underutilized from what I've seen, 100%. I love that you said that, because being human, there are times where I forget that sometimes for myself, too. But it is true.

00:28:01

And inevitably, people get snarky, which I appreciate, but that's the thing where you're like, no, it's those micro habits that of course, it's not going to change that you just had a shit day or a terrible interaction with somebody. But if I feel like it takes it down a notch. And of course, this is a podcast, but we do have the video, too, but I'm talking with my hands. But I always say stress, when we've tipped the scales and we've gone over our threshold, we do these things that just incrementally start to bring it down. And the goal is eventually through a series of things, getting it below that threshold.

00:28:38

So, like, you're saying that you have the bandwidth to not then just flip out or lose your shit or whatever, right? Those small moments make a huge difference. And we see that even with coworking, like, body doubling coworking, we do 30 seconds or a minute of breathing at the start and at the end. I've been doing this I learned this from a program that I'm in where it's the four four eight breathing. So you inhale for four, hold for four, exhale for eight, and it helps to reset your nervous system, right?

00:29:12

And so it's like a little refresh and you think like, oh, that won't matter. And sometimes you just work through it because you're stressed. And it's like, no, if you do that, those small little things do start to add up and you feel it cumulatively. It's not going to be like, oh, my God, that four four eight, now I'm fucking ready for another day. It's not that at all.

00:29:31

But it's true, though. I think we really underestimate and minimize the impact of small things because we think, how could that possibly make a difference? And we forget that it's cumulative, right? Yeah. Particularly when I think if we're super analytical, it's easy to, in the moment say, like, well, I did it three times and I didn't really notice, right?

00:29:58

And my encouragement is always like, okay, yes, be a skeptic, but let's do it three times for 30 days. Let's try the experiment, right? And I know this is something like, this is up your alley for sure. Experiment, right? Let's experiment with it for the.

00:30:15

Next two weeks, right. If you try to do like, a four, four, eight, or I do like, a 4282, then do it in the most stressful moments that you have over the next seven days, then come back and tell me, okay, maybe nothing happened. Okay, well, let's do it the next 21 times, right? And then tell me what happens. And if it's 55, you're like, this breathing thing is not for me.

00:30:37

I'm like fine. Okay, cool. Now let's start taking a lap around the block, right? Maybe you're a lap around the block, right? I'm a Pelotoner.

00:30:45

There's a coach named Adrian. He does an emotional lap where you take a lap around your mat, right? Take a lap around your mat, right. Like, maybe you're a person who needs an emotional lap. Take an emotional lap, then come back to me, right, and finding the skills.

00:30:58

And I love to experiment with that stuff, right. Because I don't have the answers for everyone, but I love to experiment. What works for you? What are you going to do in the moment that really, to your point, adds up over time to give us more bandwidth? Yeah.

00:31:14

And I love even if something like you said didn't necessarily work for you in the past, and I've seen a lot of men talk about this, they're like, oh, I thought it'd be cheesy. I mean, women, too, but it's going to be cheesy, or whatever, and then realize, like, oh, that really felt good. Like, it did make a difference. The other part of that is we don't often pay attention if we're not doing it because we're so in the moment that we can't remember. Oh, yeah, actually, yesterday it felt like I was going to lose my effing mind, but today I just kind of feel really shitty.

00:31:47

So it did work, actually. We just don't have the grading scale. But the other piece of that is, like, you're saying, and I love to scroll. I'm a scroller. I do love to check my feed, but realizing that that might be entertaining in the moment and I can kind of just escape, but is it actually replenishing me or filling me up?

00:32:14

And so it's remembering, are we doing things that are drawing from our bandwidth? Are they neutral or are they replenishing us? And to me, the scroll, to me, unless I come across something really sad or awful or triggering, it's usually neutral. Right. And even the cutest cat video still kind of neutral.

00:32:36

Like, maybe slightly positive. But at the same time, like you said, even I will advocate. My office is off our garage, so I'll say even just to go outside and remember to take, like, three minutes, stand in the sun, take some deep breaths. Even if I don't have time to take go do a walk or a workout or whatever. Because there are certain days where you're in the zone and you're like, I just have way too much to do today.

00:33:02

Those small things and the breathing and even standing up like you're saying, just those little things, they do add up.

00:33:11

So there's on one hand, I'm assuming you're talking about learning the skills as a leader to show up, be conscious, balance that I think you said data, the data people, and then the relation, you're learning those things, but then realizing none of that will matter if you don't have the bandwidth to execute on that learning. Right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, we have these skills, but if we talk about it as scaffolding, the very bottom of it, if that is not solid, I could teach you leadership skills all day long. I could show you examples of we can talk about how we develop.

00:34:00

We could talk about building instead of like hard edges where we could sometimes show up in leadership. Like building a little bit I'm making hard edges and a little bit softer edge in our leadership. That's what I'm doing with my hands right now. But we can start to talk about that. We can start to talk about how we may do things in a way that is in somebody's style, outside of somebody's working style or communication style.

00:34:24

And I can show folks, I can guide them through how you are today. How do you want to be? But if the baseline is we don't have the capacity to take on new information, we're going to be here a really long time, right? And if we're day to day maxed out in a way we can say, I really want to grow, I really want to look to the future. And in the moment, we're still in just day to day fight or flight.

00:34:55

And there's nothing wrong with that, right? Like, no judgment about that. Because that is, I think, for so much of us, just how things are today, right? We're living in a world where that's going to happen. We're going to get activated.

00:35:07

A lot happens. I think that's all of us, we can all relate to that, to your point about the scroll, then you see something sad and that affects us, right? That is all going to happen. It's how do we get ourselves back to a bit of using your word, like that neutral state of balance. And then I can layer skills on top of it.

00:35:31

Then I can layer something bigger onto that foundation of at a baseline, my body is resting enough to get by, is doing some of these things that I'm going to stay hydrated and try to get rest and try to move through some of the stress that I experience day to day. And then we can layer some of the larger picture, the bigger picture on top of it. I'm guessing that sounds like, I think, probably what you believe in, too. 100%. Yeah.

00:36:08

I was like, what does it sound like? Yeah. Does I'm 100% on board. Yeah. And that's the like I said, I feel so many people are living at the edge of their capacity, and that's a very overwhelming place to be because then one thing happens and you've lost it.

00:36:29

And I do like that you pointed out, because this is what I see, too, and people feel horrible. I mean, I've done it myself and I feel terrible. Sometimes we'll hold it together at work, but we take it out on the people we love the most because they're safe to take it out on. I mean, safe, it's not good. It's not a good thing.

00:36:48

It's not good for our relationships. But we know losing your shit on your partner or your kids is going to have a very different impact on your day to day than losing your shit on an employee. Right. It's still awful. I'm not saying it's like a good thing, but we understand why people do it.

00:37:09

Right. And so remembering that those small ways of taking care of yourself allow you to then show up and don't deplete yourself completely at work so you come home and have nothing left to give, right? Yeah. It's so true. It's so true.

00:37:26

And I think there's it's not always easy to figure that stuff out either. Right. It is a pretty privileged experience to spend time in reflection. Yes. It's not easy to come by.

00:37:46

It's not easy to create. It is something that I think if you have it, you've done something to make that a possibility. For many folks at this point, I think it's a really big job to say as a leader, as a manager, as somebody who's working in your own business, as an entrepreneur, to carve out time, to self reflect.

00:38:14

That's its own job. That requires time.

00:38:22

Many folks are not commuting at this point. Many folks are not spending much time by themselves at all. The time that sometimes is alone, we spend it on a screen or some other device. To carve out time for self reflection is its own part of being a business owner or a leader. That, again, I think, can be overlooked as time well spent.

00:38:49

100% exactly. How am I going to find time for that? I have time for shit now. I'm not going to have time to pay more attention to what I'm doing. And I get it right.

00:38:59

I get why our mind comes up with that. And again, I think it is a privilege for many of us. We are for many folks, I think we're in scenarios where it's like straight from work to another thing to another responsibility to another responsibility, and I totally get it. And so the idea of spending a little time and I mean, do you have two to three minutes, right? Do you have it to your .5 minutes, get out next to your garage and grab a tiny spot of sunshine somewhere and do a couple of minutes of breathing?

00:39:32

It doesn't have to be a ten day silent meditation. Although that sounds lovely too. Exactly. That's good too. Yeah, it is true.

00:39:43

And it's one of those things. There's so many layers to that one. Is there's always more demand than we have energy so we can get caught into that place of, like, I don't have time to do this or that. Doesn't seem like it'll be as helpful to even plan out your days or your weeks or like you said, take that space to be reflective about our own energy levels. And I feel like I'm going to be a broken record with this because you're hitting on all the stuff that in the incubator where people are talking about.

00:40:16

Like, I was thinking about maybe just skipping today and I'm so glad I came because it's a planning session. And they're like, well, we've done so much planning every week, we're planning every month. But then they're like, oh, but wait, what happens is our impulse is to fill that time. Any white space, the impulse is to fill it. Like, look at all that white space.

00:40:35

And it's like, well, we need that because people like emergencies or things will happen or things run late. And we also aren't really good about protecting our space. I feel like we let other people's priorities run the day. And then if you're already challenged in prioritization and time management and all of that, that adds a whole nother layer. So it is one of those things that I agree that we drastically underestimate.

00:41:03

Like we think, oh, I don't have an hour to plan and do this. And it's like that hour of planning is going to reap huge rewards. And also because then you're making that decision, and I always say in advance, you're in a cold state. You're not in the emotional overwhelmed. Like, oh, shit, they're coming at me.

00:41:21

Like, what do I decide? Because you're usually our go to, especially if you're the people pleaser. Or you're like, I just don't want to let anybody down and I want to make sure everyone's happy. You're going to over commit and then that's the cycle, though. And then we get the burnout, and then it's like, I'm burnt out and I can't do anything.

00:41:39

And now I've been down for three weeks, so now I overwork. And then it's just this vicious cycle of not this stable energy bandwidth management. Yeah. For folks who I see this so much, this is so classic. I think business owner also, like manager, like that mid manager level of corporate.

00:42:02

Oh my gosh, this is that there are inevitably fires, right? There's a reorg. This person's leaving, this person's coming. I got a headcount, I have to do this other thing. Oh, now it's review.

00:42:15

Now it's mid cycle review. Now it is endless. I hear this so much for folks at that level, and it is for all of us, right? Like, pick a thing. It's school week.

00:42:26

For the it's Spirit Week for the kids, and then it's camp and then it's back to school, and then it's Pick a Thing. It's this person's birthday or that person's anniversary. This is just like how it is. We have this inevitable build up of things happening in our lives. And I think when you layer in those cycles of things that pop up this input, like, oh, man, I think the folks who work in that mid manager level, my hearts go out to them regularly.

00:42:56

I think about that all the time. I think the business owner who's doing it on their own, like that CEO startup level, that kind of thing, where we're doing that thing in isolation. Leaders kind of also doing this in isolation. And then that manager level. Oh, my goodness, it coming kind of from both sides.

00:43:17

That's what I was thinking about. I was like, it's like drawing on both sides where yeah, it's not just going one direction. It's kind of like being the sandwich generation, right? Like when you have older parents and younger kids and you're like, I have no reprieve here. Yes, totally.

00:43:39

I love this idea of planning weekly, right? That's definitely something I talk about really regularly with folks, is the idea of calendar hygiene, particularly folks who have these overbooked schedules. What are we pruning? What are we pruning? What are we pruning?

00:44:00

Over and over and over again. I'm sure my clients are like, yeah, I get it, but it's the things that we do. Those are the things that we do to stop the fire, right? That fire that is kind of burning the whole week down. Yeah.

00:44:16

And the people I'm working with, they'll say, yeah, I get it, but then they're also like, but I need that reminder because again, our natural impetus is to overload and over commit. And so, like you're saying, having that calendar integrity, even so we go through this whole process and then it's like, well, you might need to delete something and you just have to say it every single time. And then finally they get the AHA of like, yeah, I need to delete something. I just have to let something go. It can't all be a top priority.

00:44:50

And yeah, I think there's the executive functioning piece. But like you said, I feel like everybody I don't care. This is why I work with so many people that I say the overwhelmed overachievers, because it's just our nature and it's our culture and it's the work culture to take on more and more and more, and we just expect somehow we'll figure it out. And it's like, no, you won't. You will overwhelm yourself or overwork yourself and then you feel crappy.

00:45:19

Right? Yeah, this idea too. I think sometimes I wonder if you experience this as well, where sometimes folks haven't given themselves permission to do that. Like, maybe no one has ever said to them, you have even permission. Not from me, but from yourself or from the world to shut it down.

00:45:45

You are a grown ass adult, and today you shut it down at 03:00 because that's what needed to happen. Or 01:00 or you didn't go to work today, or whatever. The thing is, like, the permission to not attend the meeting if we're not that is not to say that my word really doesn't mean shit, right? But it's more the idea, like, could you give yourself permission? Or who are you waiting for permission from to do this?

00:46:13

Well, that's that pause. That's that moment of pause. Because like you said, it's not about us giving permission, but it is about I'm making that space for you to give permission to yourself and validating that it's okay. And I hear this all the time. I remember this was a long time ago, this one client saying I said, oh, well, I don't start seeing clients till 01:00 because I get up early, but my brain doesn't come online until later in the day.

00:46:41

And they were like, oh, wow. Because their partner was giving them a hard time about kind of starting their main work later in the day and sitting around in the morning. And I was like, but it's my business, and I also know my own energy flow. We have to allow for that stuff, right? And so it's very freeing, especially if we're getting not just from the culture, from clients, and there's all this demand, but it's also even people close to us, especially when they're not entrepreneurial and they're looking at it and they're like, why are you watching Real Housewives at 10:00 A.m.

00:47:21

And lounging around? And I'm like, Because I work late at night and this is my flow. Yeah, I agree. I think that's why the planning with somebody else really helps. I paid somebody to do that for me.

00:47:38

I had my person who would look at my calendar and I felt like, wow, look at how much less is on it compared to what it used to be? And they're still like, that's too much. And I need that because we need somebody outside of us to hold that space and give us that pause. And then, yeah, they look at it and say, like, oh, actually, yeah, this feels overwhelming. That's one of the questions that when we go through the planning process that I say, okay, now we've done all of this.

00:48:08

Is there any day that you're looking at next week that makes you feel dread? Oh, my gosh. And asking that every week, one of the people said, well, they kind of all confirmed it, but just being asked that and reminded of that every week because then it's like, yeah, actually, Thursday feels awful. And so it's like, well, here's the thing. We're doing this a week ahead of time.

00:48:32

You can make a choice to change that. Sometimes we just look at and go, oh, Thursday is going to be a shit show. That's what it is and I've done it. I do it all the time. And even last night I had my little meltdown because I was like, this is over scheduled and this and my daughter's birthday and I was like freaking out.

00:48:53

And then finally I had to have my freak out. And then today I got up and I was looking at things and I was like, why can't I reschedule that podcast interview next Friday? They have a link to reschedule. So I did and made a few other changes. It was a few things and asking people because my thing is like, oh, I don't want to bother people, I already scheduled, I should just keep it.

00:49:18

And it's like if I'm dreading it, why can't I ask and check in? And it's a week early instead of me waiting until I'm about to lose my shit an hour beforehand and then asking them like, hey, is there any way to move this or just push through and feel awful about how I showed up?

00:49:41

As you're talking about that, I'm thinking about how with my kid we had a miscommunication and had a couple of days where we were going straight from a swim lesson to a baseball game and having my kid, I live in Seattle and kids out there, it's like 40 degrees, his hair is like dripping wet, right? And that happens right? There's those moments. And now it's 07:00 P.m. And the whole house is hungry.

00:50:08

And there's those days where there's not a lot that you can do. You're like, oh, this is where we are right now. And tell dry the hair and do your very best and bring 3000 snacks and do your very best. And then there are those days where you look ahead and you see like, oh, this day in June is nasty. I am going to do something about it, right?

00:50:34

I'm going to say like, oh no, that's the end of school week and we're going to do as many things as we can the week surrounding it. Because to your point, you're going to talk about Sport Day and Spirit Day and all the other things. How do we create that space, right, so we're able to be positive and show up in particular as entrepreneurs, so much of it comes from us. It starts with us, it ends with us, it is generated by us. And to your point, it's really hard to do if we're beyond our limit.

00:51:12

I love the way that you talked about how you show up at those times because I think that's the heart of it. You do want to show up at your best. All of us do, right? For our kids, for our business. It's a reason that you went out to start a business is because it was something that you wanted to do.

00:51:29

And when you care about it in that way, I think it does matter. It does matter to many. I'm sure almost all the folks who are listening, they care how they show up. They care how they show up for exactly their business and their people and the services and their products. And I think at its core that's the commonality that I find about the entrepreneurial spirit is it is really deep within us from a place of passion and care and that deep care.

00:51:56

We have to stoke that fire.

00:52:01

Yes. Lots and lots of tending to the fire. I will say there you go. I love that.

00:52:12

And I realized I was like, oh, we have plenty of time. We won't go over. And I was like, oh, my gosh, it's the top of the hour already. But this was so good. I just feel like there were so many nuggets in this.

00:52:23

And I love the way that you are approaching leadership and talking about it and how a lot of focus on the self care piece and really being mindful of your own energy levels and bandwidth. I think that's fantastic. That's just an angle I don't hear people talking about a lot. So I love it. I'm in full support so I'm going to be thoughtful about your time and my time so we don't end up out in the cold with wet hair.

00:52:55

So if people wanted to find out more information about you, where is the best place to connect with you? Yeah, so LinkedIn is best. I am at Jenhope there and then also my website. Heygenhope.com, Jen with one n. Love it.

00:53:11

Love it. Thank you so much. This was awesome. And like I said, we were like, oh, we're going to talk for 30 minutes. I think it's been like 50.

00:53:18

So this was awesome. Thank, thank you so, so much. Thank you, too. Appreciate it.