Connecting with Business Besties (and Bros) with Katie Vernoy and Curt Widhalm

00:00:24 - Maelisa Hall
Welcome to season two of the My Biz Bestie podcast. I'm Melissa Hall.

00:00:28 - Amber Hawley
And I'm Amber Hawley.

00:00:30 - Maelisa Hall
And today we have another BizBestie interview for you guys. Today we have a first on the My BizBestie podcast. We have a male guest. Drumroll. Yes.

00:00:45 - Amber Hawley
Drumroll. We have led a man into the BizBestie world. And as we like to call him, you're our biz bros. That's awesome.

00:00:55 - Maelisa Hall
Yes. So we will get to know... Katie Vernoy and Kurt Widhelm, who are our BizBestie duo today. Katie, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do and your business?

00:01:08 - Katie Vernoy
Okay. Well, I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. I practice out in Torrance. I'm also a career and business consultant for helping professionals. My business is called Evolve to Thrive Consulting. And so I help people with putting good systems in place, hiring the right people, that kind of stuff, making sure that they can keep sustaining their business and not burning out.

00:01:28 - Maelisa Hall
Yes. You have a lot of experience actually in consulting. like nonprofit slash corporate type environment with a lot of leadership experience, right?

00:01:38 - Katie Vernoy
Yes. Yeah. I was a director at a nonprofit organization before I went out on my own.

00:01:43 - Maelisa Hall
Very cool. Very cool.

00:01:45 - Amber Hawley
Awesome. Well, we know in the helping profession, that is a very needed thing. So thank you.

00:01:49 - Maelisa Hall
Yes.

00:01:49 - Amber Hawley
Yes.

00:01:50 - Maelisa Hall
And a lot of entrepreneurs don't, get the opportunity to have that experience before they become an entrepreneur. So I think it's kind of cool. Well, thank you. We like to give our guests props every once in a while. So Kurt, why don't you tell us a little bit about you and your business and what it is that you do?

00:02:04 - Curt Widhalm
Hi, I'm Kurt Whitelm. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. And I have a I specialize in working with high achieving teens and I practice EMDR. And one thing that Katie forgot to mention is I'm the co-host of the Modern Therapist Survival Guide podcast.

00:02:22 - Katie Vernoy
I figured we could talk about it when they said how we met. It was like a whole origin story.

00:02:26 - Curt Widhalm
Sure. Oh my gosh. Yeah, but apparently out of the things that I do, my podcast is important enough to make sure that I bring it up.

00:02:34 - Amber Hawley
Kurt, I feel bad for you. She's a little cutthroat with your whole biz bestie relationship there. Oh, that.

00:02:44 - Maelisa Hall
Cool. So you both have a lot of different things going on. Yes.

00:02:47 - Curt Widhalm
Yes, we do.

00:02:48 - Maelisa Hall
Awesome. And why don't you tell us because you're obviously you're both therapists. So you're kind of in the same space and you're both somewhat local to one another. It sounds like and to me, Amber's the outlier here up in Northern California. So how did you guys meet one another?
And yes, let's get into the origin story.

00:03:08 - Katie Vernoy
So both Kurt and I were in leadership in the local chapters of our professional organizations and met at a chapter leadership conference where we talked and had some similar takes on things. There's not often that you meet other therapists who appreciate business, who are ambitious, that have big ideas.
And so when Kurt and I were talking, there was the Similar focus, but there was also some sarcasm and snarkiness that was really appealing. It was a lot of fun.

00:03:37 - Amber Hawley
Yes, yeah. Then you just knew it was meant to be.

00:03:39 - Curt Widhalm
Yeah, we followed up. I was driving home from my office stuck in LA traffic one day and I just called Katie up and I was like, I would welcome the opportunity for you to graciously accept me as your best friend.

00:03:53 - Maelisa Hall
Oh, wow. Maybe this is the male-female difference. This is the first direct request we have seen. Yeah. Brilliant.

00:04:03 - Katie Vernoy
I think that wasn't exactly how it was, Kurt. I actually just answered the phone. I was like, why is Kurt calling me? And he was like, I'm bored. I'm in traffic. Entertain me. I was like, about? He's like, okay, well, yeah. I don't remember what we talked about.
It was like a consult thing or a business thing or like a weird observation, but it wasn't actually a direct request. It was more just chatting. And I can't believe I picked up the phone. I was like, why are you calling me when you're in traffic? Like we barely just met.

00:04:30 - Amber Hawley
I'm going to challenge this one and say that the meta message of somebody calling and saying, hey, I'm bored, entertain me, really is, will you be my best friend? All right. I'll take it. I'll take it. I'm just saying.

00:04:41 - Maelisa Hall
That's true. You don't think to call up your most hated enemy to do that. Very true.

00:04:49 - Amber Hawley
I love it.

00:04:50 - Maelisa Hall
So you guys had one wonderful conversation in LA traffic. And then how did things kind of progress from there?

00:04:56 - Curt Widhalm
We both stayed very involved kind of in neighboring chapters of our organization. And then when we moved up to the state level together, we both started our terms at the same time. And so being both the newbies on our state board at the same time, it was a learning curve that we both went through together.
But I think what really solidified it was coming back from one of those meetings when we had like a six-hour layover at an airport together. And- By the end of it, I think that I had just worn Katie down completely into, this is always going to be cemented.
This is the starting point of where our two paths are becoming one.

00:05:31 - Katie Vernoy
I blame you for that layover. You had planned your trip based on the, what's it called? The Centurion Lounge?

00:05:37 - Curt Widhalm
The Centurion Lounge. Yeah.

00:05:38 - Katie Vernoy
And so we were there and our flight kept getting delayed and other people had gotten back to LA and I was like, I blame you, Kurt. I blame you. So it set up the relationship that I like to call that Kurt is the little brother I never wanted.

00:05:51 - Amber Hawley
Aww.

00:05:53 - Katie Vernoy
Lovingly said lovingly, but I feel the false.

00:05:57 - Amber Hawley
All right. All right.

00:05:58 - Katie Vernoy
Okay. And I think what really happened is we continue to have conversations that we found really interesting that we felt like other people weren't having. And so in our origin story, continuance here, we decided that we wanted to work together spreading that message saying like, hey, therapy is changing who therapists are is changing.
We want to talk about how to make better therapists. Why don't we have a podcast? Why don't we do workshops and conferences? And so we actually ended up deciding to go into business together because, as Kurt said, he wore me down. And we just continued to have really great conversations and thought that there was something there that was worthwhile.

00:06:34 - Amber Hawley
I love that. That's a great story. It's like Casablanca. It's the beginning of a beautiful friendship. That I never wanted.

00:06:44 - Maelisa Hall
So you have a business together and we know you have a podcast together. What kind of things do you do in business together?

00:06:51 - Curt Widhalm
We're really excited about putting on our fall conference in Los Angeles here in October of 2018. And we're calling it the Therapy Reimagined Conference. And this is really taking the foundation of the conversations that Katie and I had about the development of the therapist and really focusing on embracing the individual aspects that each of us bring into the therapy room.
And we're really working on spreading that message and getting other people excited about being therapists, that it's not the daily grind of working with clients over and over or the specific techniques that we do, but it's about how we hold ourselves into the therapy room that makes therapy exciting and successful.

00:07:32 - Katie Vernoy
And I think the piece about that that's so exciting for us is that we're also talking to a lot of people, like including Melissa, who's going to be down there with us at the conference, but making sure that we're being in community with a lot of folks who are talking about the Same things that maybe not the whole profession is talking about.
So really digging into what makes therapists good, not just what's the next evidence-based practice or what's the next new clinical intervention. It's like, what really makes us good at this job and be able to sustain it. Obviously my business is about like, not burning out, and so it's it really flows together and I.
but that's kind of what we're doing as far as how we're doing it. Kurt and I actually have very different styles, different focuses. We have the same snark and we like to have fun, but we have different things that we're good at. And so we've been able to really kind of divide labor and get a lot more accomplished than we would alone.

Well, that's exciting.

00:08:23 - Curt Widhalm
I've really jumped at the chance to embrace that I work really well in big picture ideas and just kind of throwing things out there. And Katie's been phenomenal at creating helping me to see all of the details that I glossed over along the way. So she brings me back down to earth.
And I really love pushing some of the conversations forward and have really benefited not only in our project together, but a lot of what Katie's brought as far as her business consulting goes has been really applicable in my life too.

00:08:54 - Amber Hawley
Wonderful. That's so sweet. Hey, Katie, do you want to take on a biz bestie duo as the person that you can bring down to earth? We need a little balance in that. That's the only downside of our relationship is we are both the ENFPs with ADHD, you know, so.

00:09:14 - Maelisa Hall
Yeah, a lot of times we'll be having a conversation. We're like, it's like we're the same person. Like we're really similar, which is awesome. But yes, definitely. That means we have to outsource a lot of those things that we are not fulfilling for one another.

00:09:28 - Amber Hawley
So we might need a triad. We might need a triad.

00:09:31 - Maelisa Hall
I'm there.

00:09:31 - Amber Hawley
I'm there. It's really exciting, though. But a conference is a huge thing to put on. So that in and of itself is just amazing. And that's a lot of work. And you probably could talk forever about it. But how long ago did you guys actually connect? And how long have you been biz besties?
I'm curious, because that's a big endeavor to take on together.

00:09:50 - Katie Vernoy
I don't know. I feel like I met Kurt... A long time ago, but then I think we actually had to figure it out because we were going to be a reference for each other. And I was like, I think it's only been like four years, three years, something like that.
That's quite a while. That's a long time, actually. But as far as being part of being Biz Besties, I think that's been more recent. That's been maybe seven months, eight months, something like that, where we actually start.

00:10:12 - Curt Widhalm
It was about a year ago. It was about a year ago. Katie came to me and she's like, so my therapist knows all about you. And... It was like, I feel so honored. And it was the starting of a conversation.

00:10:28 - Katie Vernoy
You didn't finish that. I was saying that I had talked to my therapist about wanting to have a business partner because I was feeling isolated. And the only person I could think of was him. And I didn't say my therapist knows all about you, but I had said I had talked about it.
I was like, I don't think that Kurt would want to work with me because he's too ambitious. Yeah. But it's an equal partnership, which is something that I hadn't been able to find before. So that's what the conversation was.

00:10:56 - Curt Widhalm
And I've had previous biz bestie things that have flamed out really, really horribly. And what I really appreciate, I had started my very first practice with another therapist and we were going to go in as a group practice, 50-50 ownership. And it became clear very, very quickly that I was a lot more invested into doing the work to launch the practice.
And it unfortunately fizzled out within probably about the first six months and it cost a friendship. But I really learned a lot that has not ever come up as far as issues in our relationship goes. And if we even really approach anything that does feel unfair, and a lot of times it's us coming to each other being like, I feel like you're doing so much more work than I am that really allowed for those conversations to unfold and to really come from a constructive place rather than a resentful place.

00:11:51 - Maelisa Hall
Yes, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really valuable. And that's something that we try to ask people, you know, what are some things that you could learn from those older biz bestie relationships that maybe it seems like a lot of them do tend to just kind of fizzle out.
But I think it sounds like your experience was a big lesson learned.

00:12:08 - Curt Widhalm
Right. And it's really where I... Love the commitment that we've both been able to put into it. And really just the grit that we can get through all of the bumps in the road in order to get someplace that there's a stick-to-itiveness that we both bring and makes it really easy to appreciate each other.

00:12:25 - Katie Vernoy
Yeah, I agree. I think that being able to have that commitment, because I had another BizBestie friendship that went back to being a friendship. It wasn't a biz bestie relationship anymore, just because it was, we enjoyed working together so much and had lots of ideas.
But the passions diverged, the visions, the missions, you know, those diverged, and we were able to go back to being friends, which was awesome. But it was something where with Kurt, we have very similar visions. So that really helps because our mission, our focus is very aligned.
And I know that not all biz bestie relationships end up being business partners. But that's for Kurt and me, that's kind of what it ended up being. And I think the biggest piece is anytime there's anything, we're both therapists, but come on, a lot of people that we know are therapists and they don't necessarily have the best communication skills.
But Kurt and I are able to say something and we'll just immediately talk about it and sort through and reassign or we'll check in proactively.

And I think that's the part that really helps. I mean, I think if he and I were to have different visions about things that we wanted to do, we would figure it out. And I think that that would be fine. We could stay as besties and maybe not do things together.
I don't see that happening. But I could see us being able to do that and navigate that. But I think the fact that we're so willing to talk about those things and like, say, like, hey, that was kind of weird, or Oh, I think you're doing more work than I am, or you know, whatever that is.
You know, I think those things really help to sustain the friendship and the best bestiness.

00:13:43 - Curt Widhalm
And I don't think that there's anybody else in the world that I could wake up with like 40 text messages from overnight and be like, okay, this woman's not crazy. I don't.

00:13:53 - Katie Vernoy
You text way more than I do.

00:13:57 - Amber Hawley
I don't know. I'm beginning to go with Kurt on these. I absolutely can understand that because there are days where I feel like if Melissa hasn't answered my calls or something, I just keep calling and I'll be like, I'm not trying to stalk you. It's just I remembered something and I got to tell you right now, you know?
So... So, you know, I do understand that. So we generally ask people, well, obviously you guys have a shared business together. So that probably means you're communicating very often. But, you know, we always like to check in with people and say, like, how do you structure that biz bestie relationship?
Like the frequency of communication or how you guys communicate that kind of stuff.

00:14:36 - Katie Vernoy
We have regular meetings. meetings because of the podcast and because of the conference so that we need to be planning and that kind of stuff. So we have things scheduled in where in my calendar just basically says Kurt and Katie time. We might be interviewing somebody.
We might be interviewing prospective sponsors. We might be planning the conference. We have time to do work. So that's more of a kind of work setup. But as far as the other stuff, I think we email a lot. We text a lot. And I think there's not necessarily structure around that.
I think it's more about like if something comes up, but one thing that I was going to say, because we do push each other so much, one of the things that I'm really focused on is making sure that we don't burn ourselves out because we're pushing each other so hard and because we're so passionate about it.
So I think there's been times when I was like, Kurt, stop answering your text, you know, spend time, you know, or like, Hey, take the day off.

I got it. Like, you know, that kind of stuff. So I think that some of this stuff is also trying to set, you know, good limits and Kurt does the same for me, but making sure that there's good limits around how much time we spend, because I think we're both so passionate about what we're doing that it can be like, we can text every day, all the time, multiple times a day.
Plus we have meetings. Plus we like, he'll be stuck in traffic and he'll call still. And so now when I get stuck in traffic, I'll call him and it's like, don't you ever have clients? Like what's going on? Like, but yeah. So anyway. I love it.

00:15:57 - Curt Widhalm
Well, and with my practice being a lot of teenagers that I don't get out of sessions until eight or nine o'clock at night sometimes. So if I'm going home and I'm seeing that Katie's responding to things, I'm like, well, she's putting in a long day. I guess that I should put some limits on that, too.

00:16:13 - Maelisa Hall
And you're also like, oh, she's awake. Like when I see Amber on Facebook Messenger at 1 a.m. and I'm like, oh, she's on there, too.

00:16:21 - Curt Widhalm
I'll get back from running at like five 30 in the morning and I'll send her just my thoughts from my run today that we need to like, good morning.

00:16:30 - Katie Vernoy
I'll get texts. He's like, I've got this podcast idea. And then another text, I've got another podcast idea. Like, okay. And then he's like, as you can tell, I just got back from running. And then it'll be some like GIF or something that like is hilarious.
And then it'll be another, like, I'm telling you, he texts more than I do. I don't know why he thinks I text more than him. He texts more than I do.

00:16:47 - Amber Hawley
I was thinking how Kurt's like, stop texting me if you don't want me to respond to text. Stop responding to text. Stop texting me.

00:16:55 - Katie Vernoy
That's pretty much how it goes. And finally, then one of us will just like ditch the phone.

00:16:59 - Amber Hawley
Yeah. Yes. But isn't that the exciting part? And I think that's the same for Melissa and I is we could talk about this stuff forever. And we just have so much fun with it. And it just sparks all those ideas. And it's really nice to have somebody who's at that level.

00:17:13 - Curt Widhalm
And I think that we talk about it so much as maybe part of where Katie thought of the podcast and the conference for us is she just wants to channel my energy onto a different audience that's her, that's not her.

00:17:26 - Amber Hawley
You know, she sounds like this brilliant woman. I'm getting the picture here. She's like, oh, you can respond to all the listeners, you know, while you're stuck in traffic.

00:17:36 - Katie Vernoy
Yeah, we've even divided up social media. Like he's doing the Twitter and I'm doing Instagram just to kind of, because it's... Makes more sense. I'm like, I'll do a picture. I'll do some episode artwork. And he's like, I'm going to think of something funny to put.

00:17:51 - Maelisa Hall
No, I like it. So I have to do that stuff, though. You know, like, I think Amber and I are that is definitely not something we're good at. Like, when we have meetings, we will then break things down and say, like, okay, you're going to do this part XYZ.
So I'm interested to hear because you guys... you know, are having like this fun communication and chatting and all of that stuff. But then you're also scheduling meetings to go over, you know, whether it's interviews or go over other things. How do you, like when you have your scheduled meetings, do you like not let yourselves get too off track or distracted?
Yeah.

00:18:25 - Katie Vernoy
I don't think it would be fun if we were totally all business because I think that that part becomes exhausting because there is so much. Our vision is so huge that trying to break it down and that kind of stuff is important. And we have done that. But then other times we're just like, trying to think of really funny things that we can say, or like, like we'll sit there and just talk about like, okay, we need to do another hashtag modern therapist problem.
What can we do? And like, we'll just, you know, like we'll just riff on that for a while versus actually doing work. But I think when we actually set to it, it's like, okay. What do we actually need to accomplish? And Kurt usually likes, which is funny, he's a big picture guy, but he'll dig into laws and ethics.
He'll dig into contracts. He likes the detail kind of grounded stuff there. I was like, I want to do episode artwork and I'll do some marketing pieces. So I think we're able to divide based on skill set and then...

We're getting better at trying to set deadlines and timelines and that kind of stuff, but it feels, I mean, you say that I ground you with the details, but I'm also pretty big picture person too. And so it can get like, we can do this and we can do that at all.
We'll write a book and we're going to do that. It's like, okay, wait, wait, wait, let's, what are we doing first?

00:19:31 - Curt Widhalm
Right. I think that it also really, really helps that our procrastination anxiety schedules have fallen on opposite weeks so far. So like I'll end up with a really busy week and I'll start, you know, having those anxious phone calls to Katie of like, we're not getting enough done.
We have deadlines to meet. And she's like, nah, relax, dude. I got it. Like this week I'm still, she'll follow up the next week and we'll just have switched roles. So, you know, I hate to even put out there that we will have a week where our cycles are in sync.
And we don't have a backup plan for that.

00:20:04 - Amber Hawley
That one is not road tested. But yeah, it sounds like it's a very complimentary relationship.

00:20:09 - Katie Vernoy
Yeah, it is. It is. It's very nice to have someone who has your back and is I think it's as smart and thoughtful as Curtis because I think I joke that he's the little brother I never wanted. But he actually is a really great business partner because he's so smart, so dedicated.
And and has the space or the ability to hold a big vision that's as big as mine is. There's not that many people that can do that. They can have the big vision, but they don't actually think it's going to work. So it's just like, oh, wouldn't that be cool?
And with Kurtz, it's like, yeah, it's happening. And we're going to do this. And it's like, okay, here we go. And so that's really nice.

00:20:43 - Curt Widhalm
And while Katie calls me the little brother she never wishes she had, I call her the second most demanding woman in my life after my three-year-old daughter.

00:20:52 - Katie Vernoy
Yeah. Fortunately, his wife is less demanding than me. So that I guess is good. That's an interesting dynamic, Kurt.

00:21:00 - Curt Widhalm
But it really is very complimentary in that, like Katie said, we are both really on the same wavelength as far as what we want to accomplish and very, very similar in how we want to go about it. And that really makes it easy to keep coming back week after week, day after day.
And working on all of the projects that we are together, both the ones that we're working on together, we're still both heavily involved in our therapist association. So we even work together outside of our work together. And occasionally we even socialize.
So that's an area where there's so much more lives than dinner twice.

00:21:37 - Katie Vernoy
Yeah, and then there's definitely times when we need a break. And the thing that's kind of funny about socializing is that all of a sudden, and my husband will come on some of the things where we're doing stuff for a professional organization, and they've started ganging up on me.
So if I feel a little embattled, it's because you're like, well, Mike would think that was funny. And when my husband was like, well, Kurt would think that was funny. I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't explain. I love it.

00:22:01 - Amber Hawley
Well, yeah, it sounds like, I mean, part of what makes it work is you guys have the same energy level and you're follow through people. Because like you said, there can be people who just love to brainstorm ideas. But if they're not follow through people, I mean, they're still great to have around, but they're maybe not the people to partner with.

00:22:18 - Katie Vernoy
For sure.

00:22:19 - Amber Hawley
Yeah.

00:22:20 - Curt Widhalm
And especially in a two person team that if it was a much bigger team, have an ideas guy and have like follow through people. But when it's just two of us, like it definitely helps that we're both putting in the same amount of work that it feels like we're in this as a team.

00:22:35 - Amber Hawley
That's an excellent point. I love it. Well, just being mindful of the time, I guess if you can think about what do you think the biggest benefit of having this biz bestie relationship is or has been for you or the work that you do?

00:22:49 - Katie Vernoy
I think for me, I would kind of echo what Kurt said earlier. When I'm feeling overwhelmed and like nothing's going to work, it's nice to know that Kurt has my back and will... kind of be off cycle, I guess, but be able to kind of remind me of the vision because he shares it.
Like my husband or my friends can certainly help me say like, hey, Katie, you're great or you're fine or, you know, that they care about me no matter what, but they don't totally get what it is I do and what I'm striving to do. And so having that person that can remind you and remind you that you're good at it and remind you that the vision is still very much intact, even if you're stressed out or overwhelmed, and that you're not in it alone.
I think that's the most important thing for me.

00:23:33 - Amber Hawley
Nice. How about for you, Kurt?

00:23:34 - Curt Widhalm
I think for me that very much what Katie just said, but it's so helpful to on the personal level of going about the business of having somebody that gets me that puts up with me, like, I think that putting up with me, probably the first thing that I look for in whoever I do business with, but But she gets me and she puts up with me, so that, like, checks off the first two boxes.
And it really makes going about the work so much easier. And I really do appreciate that because I know that with my humor, with my energy, that I can grind people out. And so far, Katie's still surviving, so I love that.

00:24:15 - Katie Vernoy
Well, and I think a caveat too, I get you. I think you also get yourself and you get me because there's times when you'll say a joke and the expression I give you is like, Kurt will be like, yeah, apparently that's not okay today. I will not tell her I said jokes again today.

00:24:31 - Amber Hawley
And so there's a dynamic that works. I've never heard somebody say it that way, but I was like, yes, that's me. I feel like Melissa... Puts up with me and like, she, she, uh, she tolerates all my stuff. I'm like, Oh, that's so nice, that is why it works, she puts up with my stuff, I love it.

00:24:53 - Maelisa Hall
Do you guys have any tips for people who maybe don't have that biz bestie yet, or are feeling a little bit isolated? And they want to, you know, get some of that support? Like, what would you recommend that people do?

00:25:05 - Katie Vernoy
I think for me, it's. we met networking and granted a lot of people will network and just hand out cards and like, you know, kind of say like, Hey, refer to me. But when you develop real relationships, you're going to find referral relationships, but you're also going to find your colleagues and your friends.
And I think that was really evident in that, We met, we followed up, and we continued to develop the relationship because we stayed involved. And so I think when you're involved, when you're getting out of your office and meeting people and really trying to develop relationships, that's how you find the people who are going to be able to be your biz besties or support you as your community.

00:25:40 - Curt Widhalm
And what's really worked for me is in very much that same pattern is putting yourself out there and... continuing to put yourself out there and the people who keep responding to you already going to kind of match up pretty well with you in the first place.
So that can kind of really filter out a lot of the mistakes that you can make in trying to chase somebody who looks like they're doing something good and fun. But the people that you can rely on is probably the most important thing that I've ever walked away with.

00:26:07 - Amber Hawley
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Huge. And what I will say to remember, you need to answer that phone call because if she had never answered. So I know all you textures out there, there is value in answering that phone call.

00:26:24 - Maelisa Hall
Never know.

00:26:26 - Amber Hawley
I love it. Well, thank you so much, guys. This has been a lot of fun and sharing your story. And I know I think so many people find it valuable to hear how other people structure things or how they need or kind of the value that they get out of the relationships that they make in business, especially.
So thank you very much for sharing with us. And thank you, Kurt, again, for being our first biz bro. Yes.

00:26:48 - Katie Vernoy
Go men. Thanks so much for having us. We had a blast.

00:26:55 - Amber Hawley
And if you loved hearing from them today, where should we send them to follow up with you guys?

00:27:00 - Katie Vernoy
Well, you can hear us talking on our podcast, The Modern Therapist Survival Guide, which is mtsgpodcast.com. We also have our conference and our workshops and stuff. That's at therapyreimagined.com. And I guess, you know, personally, I'm at kativernoi.
com.

00:27:14 - Curt Widhalm
And I'm at kurtwithelm.com.

00:27:16 - Katie Vernoy
Great, great.

00:27:17 - Amber Hawley
Kurt, you don't want to give out your phone number? I'm just kidding.

00:27:22 - Curt Widhalm
My phone number's on my website.

00:27:24 - Amber Hawley
Touché, my friend, touché. Awesome. Well, thanks again. And for all those listeners out there, if you don't want to miss another thing from us and make sure that you get all of our BizBestie interviews, please head on over to mybizbestie.com and sign up and leave us comments.
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