Communicating and Working Together as a Couple with Jacqui Letran and Joseph Wolfgram

Amber Hawley [00:00:24]:
Welcome to season 4 of the My Biz Bestie Podcast. I'm Amber Hawley

Melissa Hall [00:00:28]:
And I'm Melissa Hall.

Amber Hawley [00:00:30]:
And today we have a very special treat for our Biz Bestie interview. We have our very first couple. I am so excited about this. There's just— it's like, it's like the best of everything. So I can't wait to hear how they do it. So we'd like to welcome our special guests, Jackie Letran and Joseph Wolfgramm of the Roving Vegans podcast. Welcome.

Joseph Wolfgram [00:00:54]:
Thank you for having us today. I'm the husband part of the dynamic duo and I have to say, really the follower, the follower. Jackie's the mastermind of what's going on. She's the schedule keeper and that kind of thing. But I am proud to be a part of the team. Our company is called A Healed Mind and we have a practice that Jackie runs in addition to a couple of podcasts. One is The Roving Vegans at therovingvegans.com where you can hear all about our interviews with other vegans and vegan lifestyle folks. And then other podcast is called Stop the Bully Within, and it's all about mindset mentoring, positive mindset, and turning that negative inner critic voice into your personal champion for success.

Amber Hawley [00:01:40]:
Wow. I was like, that's— first of all, I just love that you honor all that she does because we were like, well, duh, schedule keeper. We knew. I'm just teasing. That one's for all the married folks. That are listening.

Melissa Hall [00:01:57]:
Except for me.

Amber Hawley [00:02:00]:
Well, because Melissa is our exception to that. But yes, but I think that is so awesome. So you guys have a couple of different podcasts. And, and can you tell people the roving part of The Roving Vegans?

Joseph Wolfgram [00:02:13]:
Yeah, sure. Yes. Full time in our RV right now. But Jackie, go ahead and tell the story.

Melissa Hall [00:02:20]:
So The Roving Vegans came out because that is a dream that Joseph and I had for a really long time. And that dream is to really live our lives fully. And, you know, really getting away from the conventional, the 9 to 5, that kind of responsibility, and being able to go where we want to go, be where we want to be, and really live on our terms. And so the roving part is we've been planning on and really worked our ways on developing a business that we can do on the road anywhere there's internet. And we've been just traveling the country in our motorhome with 4 cats and a dog and you just, know, taking it one day at a time and having a good time.

Melissa Hall [00:03:03]:
Oh my gosh. So your bed is like full, like you guys need like a king size bed. I don't know how you do that. 4 cats and a dog.

Jacqui Letran [00:03:11]:
Actually, no, we like our queen size bed. It's nice and cozy. I'm not even kidding you.

Melissa Hall [00:03:19]:
Oh, I believe we have a full size in our RV.

Amber Hawley [00:03:21]:
Right?

Jacqui Letran [00:03:22]:
No, we've been on business trips where we have a king size bed and we're like, Where are you?

Amber Hawley [00:03:30]:
So suffice it to say, you guys like the closeness. But yes, it does— like, it sounds like a full load with all the animals and everything. But I think it's especially cool because in addition to having a business together, which some people are wondering, like, how would I make that work, you know, within my relationship if they have an idea for a business? But you're also living in an RV with all of your animals. So I think That's why I'm so fascinated by the story and I can't wait to hear how you guys structure it. I just think it's really exciting to give people kind of a view of how you can live your life on your terms and make it work for you.

Joseph Wolfgram [00:04:07]:
Well, let me start by saying, I think it's really important if your audience is listening to this thinking, hey, I want to maybe jump into this lifestyle and work with my partner in business and be mobile in an RV. Those are huge commitments. Each one of those individually is a huge commitment and scary. Like, you better really like the person that you're hanging out with. And so, you know, Jackie and I are no exception. We were wondering too, how is this going to work? So we had taken some long vacations. One was like 21 days. And when we got done in the RV, we like wanted to go back. So we thought, we can really do this, you know? So a a little, little sample, some trial trips are probably a good idea if you're thinking about the mobile aspect of it. But working together, you might find this hard to believe, but both Jackie and I are pretty driven individuals. We both like to be the boss. I worked a corporate job for— I was in IT for over 30 years and I was the head of IT department for the last 15 of those. So, when I went to work, I was used to people kind of doing what I say and respecting what my opinions were and things like that. And one of the first things that struck me as I started to work with Jackie people time is, hey, she just doesn't do what I say. And like, you know, she's got her own ideas and she's questioning why I am saying things. And I was like, what is this? So there's some adjustment that has to happen. But, you know, I think one of the, one of the keys, regardless of who's got what experience where and how you divide up the work and that sort of thing, is to really have a basis, a platform of respect for that other person and always doing whatever it is that you're doing to be toward the success. And it's not about who gets the credit or who does what share of the work or that kind of thing. If you're splitting hairs over those kinds of details, it's going to be a bumpy road. But if it's all about, hey, what are we trying to do and how do we get there and who's got the idea? We found we settled into a little bit of a balance there where Jackie's great at writing first draft content of things, like coming up with the ideas and getting stuff. I'm pretty good at looking at that and like going through and doing the editing part of it or kind of polishing, and it goes back and forth. So we're starting to find a pattern of what works and who does what and the natural division of labor. And when we work together on things.

Melissa Hall [00:06:37]:
That'S such a good, like, practical, realistic example, you know, of like how, how you're complementing one another. How, how, so how long, because you were working in your corporate job for a while. So how long has it been that you've been working together? And did you also ease into that part kind of like you did with the RV lifestyle?

Jacqui Letran [00:06:57]:
That's part of us working together, right? One of us would jump in and the other one would pause and give that person an opportunity to say what they need to say. And I think that's really important, touching back on what Joseph just said about respect. I think one of the keys to our success is that we truly respect one another. You know, as human beings and as business partners and as life partners, we always take that pause and just let the other person have a chance.

Amber Hawley [00:07:22]:
Right.

Jacqui Letran [00:07:23]:
And that works really well. But to answer your question, it was definitely an ease in because Joseph has been in his corporate work and he, that's where his mind is focused on in terms of, you know, how we make an income. But I've been a business owner for so long. And when Joseph and I got together, I've been in business, at that point, probably a good 8, 9 years by myself. But Joseph brings in this element of support that is so key to success. And so slowly he's been my support system, whether it's just emotional support. And there were times there was financial support. And then he started playing a bigger role in my business. Like he said, the editing part. I'm also an author. I have 3 award-winning books out there. That would not win those awards without Joseph's editing. I mean, like he said, I can write the first draft and I can correct the second and the third draft, but grammar, not my strong suit. And also Joseph has a way with words. He's a great wordsmith. So when I say something, it's very blunt and he dressed it up in a way that makes it really easy and comfortable for people to hear. And so we do really work well together and Another key to our success is that we truly play to our strengths. Like Joseph said, it's not like a division of labor. It's not like who does this and who gets credit. It's like, this is the project, this is the outcome we're looking for. You're really good at that. You take leadership there, you know, and I'm really good at this and I'll take leadership there. And then, so we really find that balance, that rhythm, and try to really support one another in each other's strengths. And step up when the other person have a weakness.

Amber Hawley [00:09:08]:
I love that. I love both. The marriage counselor in me loves the ease-in idea. The idea of, yeah, let's start dipping our toe in a little bit and seeing how we do navigate that. Because even though couples love each other, sometimes having that communication can be harder. 'Cause it's like, especially when it's your business stuff, like you're like kind of protective. You're like, this is my baby. I'm in charge of this. And so being able to kind of ease into that and finding that way of realizing, hey, we're on the same team here. So let's really take our ego out of it and highlight each other to kind of, like you're saying, use your strengths. And I love the idea of taking a long vacation first because I have heard those stories. I don't know if you've ever watched, like I've watched shows like this, like Homesteader Show where people never spend that time together. They quit their jobs and they buy something. And they're just like fully into it and they've never practiced. And so I think that we recommend that. That's a good idea.

Joseph Wolfgram [00:10:11]:
And you know what? I love that word too, practice, because that's exactly what it is. There's, there's no one right way to do this or best way to approach being in business with your partner. And each day is a practice. So, you know, the thoughts that we're sharing with your audience today are where we're at in the journey. It's the the things that we've already worked through and we've learned from. But every, every day, every week, there's, there's something, there's a challenge. Or maybe, you know, I learned that it wasn't very sensitive in a way I approached something or how I did something. And it's different than working in an office environment. There's a culture and a protocol there where it's like, okay, you put on your professional clothes and you have the demeanor and there's these unspoken set of rules. And you know what, if your boss was a little hard on you or somebody handed you an assignment in a rough way, you do it, you suck it up and you do it. But when it's your wife or your husband, there's other feelings that are involved there. So it's a different dynamic, it's a different level. And so I love the word practice. We practice every day and I'll be the first to admit there are times when Jackie does something that catches me off guard and I'm a little offended, like, how could you undo those edits? That was some beautiful composition I made there. She's like, well, that's not the point I was trying to make. And I don't— it doesn't matter if that's the point you were trying to make. That was some great wordsmithing. And it's like, no, no, you got to check that ego at the door and say, okay, well, let me understand what is the point you're trying to make. And it's just different, but it's a continuous practice. So I would say anybody who's discouraged by trying this and running into some potholes or some rough patch in the road, you just have to keep at it. And you're going to dig deep sometimes for that growth that you need as an individual to continue working in the relationship with your partner.

Amber Hawley [00:12:07]:
I love that. I love that point too, because first of all, all I'm imagining is like, I get even attached to my own writing when I'm the one editing it. I cannot imagine somebody else coming and changing it. I would be— I think that would take a lot of growth experience for me. But I do— I think that is a great point for people to hear that if you go in thinking it's got to be like you this, know, Hollywood movie soulmates kind of thing that everything just seamlessly falls into place and we have no conflict, you're not going to be happy because that's not life. And so we are two human beings. And I love the idea of when we go into work, you know, being in the corporate environment or whatever business environment we were in, there are times where we're saying things very matter of fact and it's not even rude or anything. But I imagine as a couple, that, that might sometimes feel a little like, whoa, what just happened there?

Melissa Hall [00:13:04]:
Well, I wonder, you know, when we do these Biz Bestie interviews, we'll ask people like, how do you structure your relationship? And, you know, it's usually people talking about like whether or not they talk on the phone or they use Voxer or whatever. You know, they're not usually living together all the time. Right. So do you— and I, you know, you hear people talk about like you know, I light this candle to start my workday. And when I, you know, put the candle out, my workday is done. And I don't think about business after that. And then you hear people who talk about like, I'm just working all the time. And I think that's what a lot of us especially do in the beginning, and I'm trying to get out of, you know. So like, how do you two structure that? Like, are you talking business over dinner? Are you, you know, being really careful about how you do that to keep it separate?

Jacqui Letran [00:13:49]:
So Joseph and I definitely work a little bit different that way. I love my work. I work 24/7 and I'm like smiling ear to ear because I truly love my work. And Joseph loves his work, but he also has a better boundary for personal space and personal time. And so that's something that he and I have been really working on negotiating. And now that we are full-time together in our business and in the RV, I mean, in the RV space, we have 200 180 square feet, again, with 4 cats and a dog and the 2 of us.

Joseph Wolfgram [00:14:22]:
Right.

Jacqui Letran [00:14:22]:
And there's not a lot of privacy. There's not a lot of room. And you know, if you want to go relax, you're right there. I see you no matter what you're doing. So we've been trying different things because Joseph really honors his personal boundaries, like I said, and he likes to meditate and he likes to stay grounded where I'm like, I'm out of bed. I'm like, I'm ready. Let's go. Let's rock today.

Amber Hawley [00:14:45]:
Right.

Jacqui Letran [00:14:46]:
And Joseph has to do his, thing, which I'm like, come on, we ain't got time for that. So learning that balance, and we have daily conversations about what's working well, what's not working well. And it's not a chore to us, it's a normal conversation. And even before we started working together, we got this from a movie, and I forgot what the movie's called, but daily we would say, what's your high and what's your low? And we just have a conversation about what was exciting to us and you what, know, took our energy away. And so we've always had that as a foundation for our couple. And so we brought that into talking about business that way too. So what worked well? What can we improve on? You know, what didn't you like? And so those daily conversations about Joseph telling me, I need a little bit more quiet time. So now on the calendar, we have quiet time from 7 until 9 where I'm to leave Joseph alone to do his thing because it takes him that long to really get into that mindset. And then he's awesome for me. I'm like, okay, I'm up, I'm going to go. And so for me to learn how to have quiet time has been very interesting. And I actually like it because I never really take that time for myself to really reflect inwards. And it just given me something new. So with all of what I'm seeing right now and what Joseph and I are doing is like another key to our success, I think, is just having an open mind. Knowing that your way works well for you, but maybe there's a possibility of something that can even work better, or it doesn't even have to work better. It can work well for you and your partner. So those daily conversations that we have truly help us a lot.

Joseph Wolfgram [00:16:25]:
One thought I have there real quick for you guys out there, because I think it's more common, women, I think, my belief, so I'll say it from my perspective, are naturally better communicators. They're more verbal. They talk. They express feelings. They're in touch with feelings more. I'm more of a typical guy, I think, and I have a lot of thoughts. I'm very heady. And so one of the things that's key is getting used to communicating, like what is on your mind. There's going to be things that come up that are uncomfortable or there's conflict or things to work through, challenges. And like Jackie said, we've come up with this thing where we just say, hey, what was good? What was high? What was the low? What's working? What's not working? So guys out there, get used to talking more, communicating, getting in touch with how did you feel about that yesterday? Because we tend to just deal with those things and bury them, push them down in there and like work through it. But if you've got a pile of 10 things now that have accumulated on your shoulders that you're carrying around that you're just toughing it out and working through, that's not going to be a long-term solution. You're going to have to unpackage those and say, okay, yesterday when you got out of bed at 6:00 AM and started working and we didn't stop until 11:00 at night, that's not going to work for me long-term. I didn't get to meditate. I didn't get to go to the coffee shop. I didn't get to browse through my Twitter feed and see what's going on, that kind of thing. So, you just have to be able to talk about those things and Jackie, is a driven, tough person. She's very direct. And so sometimes I'll find that when I first start expressing, hey, this didn't work too well for me, that's a big thing for me to even say that. And then Jack would be like, well then, da da da da da. And I would take that as like an argument or a counterpoint to me. And my instinct was to just clam up like, oh, okay, well, I'm not going to say anything then. But that's like getting used to the communication style as a business partner aside from her communication style as a life partner, right? And so now I'm kind of getting used to that. And that's like, okay, this is a conversation, not an argument. This is, you know, seeking for clarity, not, you know, a pushback to my position. So again, it's a practice, but it starts with being able to communicate and communicate regularly.

Amber Hawley [00:18:49]:
And I love that you guys are doing it daily because I agree with you that, well, one, I see that a lot of people aren't even in tune with what's actually coming up for them. It's more like they feel that like, uh, or just kind of this, ah, this doesn't feel good, but I don't know exactly why. And so I think when you do practice it every day, you get more in tune and you can articulate that better. And I love that, yeah, seeing it as, okay, we have different styles. And that's something we talk a lot about on the podcast is one, you have to know yourself. Like you have to be really in tune with, hey, I'm the kind of person who, I'm driven and I'm great, but I cannot do anything of a certain task before like 10:00 AM. And so I need to have that space and I need to have my warmup to the day. And then, yeah, then I can go balls to the walls with you. But before that, I need my breather, I need my ease in. And if you didn't know that about yourself, I could see somebody going along with that for a very long time and burning out and then building resentment as well. So I think that's fantastic that you guys do that. I also kind of want to live with you in the RV. No, Jack.

Joseph Wolfgram [00:20:00]:
Plenty of space left.

Amber Hawley [00:20:02]:
I know. I was like, I actually, I'm more like you where I would need the, like, I need the ease into the day, but I'm kind of fascinated. And I just feel like short-term, maybe this is a business idea for you. I want somebody who's my taskmaster from like 7:00 AM till 11:00 PM.

Melissa Hall [00:20:17]:
It's so, she's not even lying. Definitely talked about that. You know, like, not— this is not even a new idea. Um, yeah, so, you know, think about that, Jackie. It's, it's definitely fodder for a reality show.

Jacqui Letran [00:20:29]:
Oh yeah, I'm game for anything.

Melissa Hall [00:20:34]:
I get that sense.

Jacqui Letran [00:20:35]:
I say yes and I'll figure out how. But that's what I do for a living. I'm a mindset mentor and I really help people to really unpack, unclutter, and get a lot of clarity. I usually work more in the personal space, right? More dealing with emotions and families and connections. But it's the same work. It's really about, you know, getting very clear on what you want to do and having the steps to move forward with. So you're welcome in the RV. We'll take care of you.

Amber Hawley [00:21:08]:
I love it. Do you think that your background and work has helped you in navigating this switched to being full-time RVers and business, more than business besties. We need a new word.

Jacqui Letran [00:21:25]:
But we are business besties. I like that word. Joseph is my best friend. And I think that's really important to a successful business life partner, business partner is that word respect keep coming up for both of us. We do truly respect each other. But the other thing too that is super important is we love each other, but more importantly, we like each other. We truly just enjoy being in each other's company and throwing ideas around and trying to figure out what's next. And the other thing too that I think Joseph was a little slower to take on this one, but you're awesome at it now, is learning how to play. Play is so important to me. Everything goes so much faster. It makes things much more enjoyable. And that's just my personality. I'm very playful and very goofy, and I bring that into my work. So I'm working with clients who are depressed and suicidal, and they're like laughing hysterically. I mean, how often do you have that opportunity as a depressed, suicidal person, right? But the whole key is really taking yourself light. And if you look at your problem, whether it's a business problem or a personal problem, and you're able to make fun of it and you're laughing at it, it no longer becomes that big obstacle. It becomes something very highly solvable. But I would say, you know, both Joseph and I are trained in a lot of the techniques that I use with private clients. And when Joseph was doing it in the corporate world, he was using the same skills on a larger scale. I do one-on-one and he does a lot more group mentoring and things like that. But I would say that having learned those skills, saved our relationship, our personal relationship, um, saved it, took it to another level and really allow us to work together again as business partner, as best friends, and as playmates. Knowing that mindset is everything. Knowing that you have a choice on hanging onto an emotion or letting it go and focusing on what you want. Learning that whatever you focus on becomes your reality. You know, we have been able to let go of some of the pain, some of the hurt, some of the disappointments, and again, focus on knowing that we are a team working towards a common goal. And at the end of the day, we love and like each other. That's what we really focus on with what we do. And it really helps.

Joseph Wolfgram [00:23:54]:
Yeah, I agree. And I love the little things, the little truths that, that can come up and save the day on occasion. Like, would you rather be right or happy? You know, 'cause if you're fighting to be right and that's where Jackie and I can get caught up is like, you know, this is my position, I know that this is the best way to go and she's just as confident in the other position and it's the best way to go. And then we remember things like, well, do I wanna be right or do I wanna be happy? And that kind of eases it up a little bit. It opens up the mind to possibilities that maybe the one way I think is the way this should go has options and let me listen to what's going on.

Amber Hawley [00:24:33]:
That's great. I think, I guess a question that's coming up for me is thinking about the lack of privacy and personal space. Has that come up at all? 'Cause as much as you may love and like somebody, I think that everybody, and this varies based on each person, like how much personal space do we need? Do you ever just need that time where literally you couldn't look across the RV and start talking to me at some point? You're like, no, you would actually have to open a door. You'd have to do Or something you, there's a way of saying like, no, this is my time. But I mean, I love that you schedule it 'cause that's brilliant. But are you finding that, you know, you, are how are you navigating that, I guess, getting your personal space?

Jacqui Letran [00:25:14]:
So there's a couple of things that we do that works really well. There's an outside space to the RV. So who says you have to sit in the RV all day long, right? And plus we have a dog, so there's always that opportunity to walk the dog. And get your own time. And not only do we walk the dog, we walk 2 of our 4 cats, and we have so much fun. I mean, they walk us really, but it's really about understanding your needs and being able to express your needs and having a partner that helps you to feel safe in expressing your needs. So there might be time where Joseph is like, you know, I'm just gonna go for a walk, or I'm gonna sit outside and chill. And I would ask, you want some company? No, I want to be by myself right now. And I honor that. I don't take it personally because I know he loves me. I know we like each other, but I know I want to breathe on my own sometimes too. And sometimes it's Joseph asking for that personal space. Sometimes it's me asking for the personal space. And I know the word respect is going to come up a lot with Joseph and I, and we respect each other's need for space and boundaries. Or sometimes he might tell me, or I might tell him, you need to go for a walk.

Joseph Wolfgram [00:26:27]:
It's like, it's like, let me invite you out by yourself.

Amber Hawley [00:26:30]:
Yes, I was gonna say, I was like, uh, the therapist in me says no, you don't tell someone to take a walk. I like your invitation, but no.

Jacqui Letran [00:26:41]:
Would you like to take Frosty for a walk? That's how we say it.

Amber Hawley [00:26:46]:
But I think what you're saying is because it is very respectful to say, hey, I'm needing this for myself, and understand— and respectful to honor that. When you— when that's your baseline, your foundation, there can be those times where you're like, you need to go take a walk, and they will take it and they will be okay.

Joseph Wolfgram [00:27:04]:
Yeah. And let me just say too that again, it's that communication thing that's so important. If I just started signaling like, hey, I need some time on my own, I'm gonna go outside, and, you know, whatever for a while, it could cause hurt feelings. It could cause confusion. You know, somebody that used to work 9 to 5 and then just see each other in the evenings and that kind of thing. And now you're together 24/7. So it's important to kind of lay that groundwork. When we had the conversation where I said, hey, look, I need time to meditate and I need time to just think and process stuff. Like, I'm not as quick to be in touch with my feelings on something or my thoughts about how things should go. And Jackie's like, what's next? What's next? Let's go. We got to get this plan. What's the next step? It was like, hey, sometimes I need to sit on things for a day or two or a week even. And it took me a little while to figure out that I need to say that. Like, Tweety, I need to think about this for a while. Can you put it on a shelf for 2 or 3 days? Would that be OK? And then she can adjust her internal calendar. OK. But you can bet I'm going to get a follow-up in 3 days. OK, what's your thoughts on this now? But that works. It's about setting expectations. And early on, I didn't know to do that. So, I'm like, "Okay." I listen to what she said and I would just think about it. And she's like waiting for an answer and it's like, "I don't have any plan to give you an answer on this for a few days until I think about it." But I needed to let her know that. Right? So, that was, you know, so it's those little things. So, communicating all the time what's going on. You know, other people aren't mind readers. We think we're mind readers because I know exactly what she's thinking. I don't. And nobody knows what I'm thinking either. So verbalizing, that's real important.

Jacqui Letran [00:28:44]:
And you know, even in our space, I mean, we talk about leaving, right? One of us leaving. But one of the things that we've learned too, that in our tiny little space, we can still honor each other's need for separation. So I'm a talker when I work, I multitask like nobody's business. And I'm doing this, I'm writing an article and I'm having a conversation with him about something else and I'm petting my dog. And Joseph would be doing the one task I asked him to do earlier, and he's like so focused and totally in the job. I'm like, what about this? And he answers me. What about that? He'll answer me. He's like, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to do this article or do you want to talk about that?

Joseph Wolfgram [00:29:22]:
Right. Give me the assignment, then she asked me 3 or 4 questions throughout it, and then she's like, is that assignment done yet? And I'm like, no, I've been answering your questions. I can't multitask. I really can't. One thing at a time. So yeah.

Amber Hawley [00:29:36]:
Well, and just to give you and the listeners just a little nugget is, uh, actually that's a biological thing. So men have smaller corpus callosums, which is the part of the brain that allows the left hemisphere to speak to the right hemisphere. So women have larger ones. So the data flow is just like easier that way. And so I often tell this to couples because it's very helpful to know, like, it's almost like you have to It's like you're transitioning down and then booting back up to have that conversation. And so that other part is now on hold. It's not there. And the same thing, but I think that's an excellent thing to be able to say like, hey, yeah, I'm not— I can't do it the way you do it. And it's not better or worse. It's just different. And yeah, how can we make it happen?

Joseph Wolfgram [00:30:23]:
I so agree with what you're saying. And I believe the science that you're explaining 100% because I'm in awe. The women that I've worked with in my life are able to truly multitask like in a way that I don't comprehend. And I think a lot of professional businessmen, honestly, in an honest moment here, really don't even recognize what women are doing because it's so foreign to us. Like, you can truly do so many things at the same time. But if you're not having a conversation about that and how it works, you know, that's when you can run into problems because it could leave Jackie to wonder, know, you What is this guy doing? Is he not listening to me? Is he lazy? Is he not into this work? That kind of thing. And really, it's just we're single-threaded, to use a computer term. Men are single-threaded. We got one thread of focus that we can work on at a time, generally speaking. And if it's interrupted, you're exactly right. It starts over. Like, we reboot, we get back into it. And women just seem to have this amazing, miraculous ability, from my perspective, You can handle 3 or 4 things at the same time. And I think personally, I leverage that in our working relationship because I know Jackie can do little bits of 4 or 5 threads at the same time. So if she's kind of working at that level on things and then I've got something I can bite into for an hour or 2 solid and just knock out the editing or whatever it happens to be, that works and we're both being really productive that way.

Jacqui Letran [00:31:55]:
Joseph has gotten really good about giving me that signal because I didn't understand that when we first started working together. I'm like, I can do this, so he can do it, right? And so he has been able to communicate with me, okay, what project would you like me to work on? That project? Okay, I need an hour of quiet time, uninterrupted time. And once I understood that, I can back off of my questions And we work so much more effectively. Before, I bombard him with stuff because that's just how I work. So circling back to all of this about, you know, working together effectively is again really understanding your style and understanding the other person's style and be willing to work. Again, if you're going to be working with your partner, what are his style? How does he work best and how do I support that? And then vice versa. It's about supporting each other in your strength.

Melissa Hall [00:32:45]:
Yeah, I love that you, you both seem to complement one another really, really well. But it also, it hasn't just been like, oh, well, he's good at this and I'm good at this. And so this is what we do. It's a lot of figuring it out. And I know we're about, we're almost done on time. So do you have any like final, final thoughts for people who are in that space where they're thinking my partner and I might want to be in business together? You know, some final words of wisdom for people who are considering it or maybe in the beginning?

Jacqui Letran [00:33:14]:
You know, Joseph, I think this would be a really, really good time for you to go through the 3 causes of upset feelings, because if you understand this and you manage that, a lot of the problems can go away.

Joseph Wolfgram [00:33:25]:
That's a good point. So, yeah, there's just one thing that I believe, and that there are only 3 causes of upset in all the world, only 3 causes of upset. One is unmet expectations. So if I have an expectation and something, I see it play out a way other than what I anticipated, I could be upset. So if I expected this and I see that, I could be upset. The second thing that can cause upset are thwarted intentions. So if I'm intending to do something, I'm going to pick up this glass on the table and somebody knocks my hand out of the way before I reach the glass,, I could be upset. So thwarted intentions is the second cause for upset. And the third and only other reason that causes upset is a miscommunication that leads to either one of the other two, an unmet expectation or a thwarted intention. And at the bottom of everything that an individual does in a work relationship or sincere personal relationship or whatever, there's a golden intention, right? There was some outcome that was intended to be done or happen because of what was said or what was done. And pausing for a moment and just thinking, okay, why am I upset about what just happened? I expected A, and now I see B. Let me understand why B happened. Why did that occur? Just following that simple little formula each time instead of just reacting like, What do you mean you sent it out to publication already before we had a chance to edit it? I was expecting we were going to edit one more time. Well, either there was a miscommunication where Jackie probably told me 5 times that it was getting sent out and I didn't hear it because I was working on something else, or my intention got thwarted. I was intending to edit it one more time before it got sent out, but to seek, like, why did it happen this way? Why did you take that action or whatever, to seek for understanding. Those kinds of simple little things have saved many a fight, I think.

Jacqui Letran [00:35:37]:
I wanted to touch on that unmet expectation a little bit because I think that is— we talk about the 3 causes of upset feelings, but I think the true big one is unmet expectations because those other 2 really fall into that. And so if you just use that as your guideline, unmet expectations. And you ask yourself, what were my expectations in this situation? Because oftentimes we don't even know what our expectations are. We just know that thing wasn't it.

Amber Hawley [00:36:02]:
Right.

Jacqui Letran [00:36:02]:
And if we don't understand our expectations, how can we expect our partner to understand it? So taking it back and taking ownership of your own self, what were my expectations? Were my expectations realistic for the situation? Because sometimes we expect things that are just not realistic and are not going to happen. What were my partner's expectations? You're not the only one in the game. You've got a partner. So you have to understand your expectation and your partner's expectation. And then the communication comes in. Did I communicate my expectation in a way that my partner understood? Did I have buy-in from my partner? Just because you say it doesn't mean there were agreements. Just because you said something and they didn't respond, that's not an agreement.

Joseph Wolfgram [00:36:45]:
Sometimes I'm just thinking about it.

Jacqui Letran [00:36:48]:
Right. So going through those steps, ex, my what were my expectations? Was it realistic for the situations? What were my partner's expectations? And that we communicate our expectations so that the other person understood, understood, and that we have buy-in. And if you just run through that, you can fix the problem really easily.

Amber Hawley [00:37:07]:
That's awesome. So if people wanted to learn more about you guys, where should they go?

Joseph Wolfgram [00:37:12]:
Great place to go is www.rovingvegans.com to learn more about that podcast and also www.stopthebullywithin.com. Both of those podcasts are available in all the normal podcast areas, but the websites that I just gave the URLs to give a little bit more. They've got the show notes pages, kind of some of the background on who we are, what we're all about, that kind of thing. Jackie's books are highlighted in the Stop the Bully Within podcast. If you're interested in those products, they are phenomenal. I have to say I'm very, very proud of my wife and the work that she's done there. The awards that she's won and the books are Amazon's bestsellers list now. One of them's been on the bestseller, number one bestseller for months, if not over a year now. So they're fantastic resources for anybody with a mind.

Melissa Hall [00:38:05]:
I love it. Thank you guys so much for being so open and willing to share a lot of your personal examples. I think a lot of people are going to find value. If you did find this episode really interesting, really helpful, please share it with a friend. We would love it if you would share the podcast with someone who might find this helpful so we can keep sharing the love.