3 Tips to Become a Better Leader and Avoid Burnout

Melissa Hall [00:00:22]:
Welcome to season 5 of the My Biz Bestie Podcast. I'm Melissa Hall.

Amber Hawley [00:00:27]:
And I'm Amber Hawley.

Melissa Hall [00:00:28]:
And today we're going to talk about— I don't know, I already feel like it's a little bit of a downer, but we want to like use it to pick you up, actually. And it's how to be a leader without burning yourself out.

Amber Hawley [00:00:42]:
Because it doesn't sound down to me at all.

Melissa Hall [00:00:44]:
Okay, good. All right. I guess I just felt like, oh, burnout, like, like everybody's gonna be like, wah wah.

Amber Hawley [00:00:52]:
Well, the reality is a lot of leaders and a lot of business owners who have employees are dealing with this. So I think it can be very helpful.

Melissa Hall [00:01:02]:
That is true. Yeah. And I guess when, when we were talking, that's what we were thinking is like a lot of people, when you're in scale mode in your business, like it's really easy to think about all the other things you need to do to scale and to ignore leadership, even though like growing your own leadership skills are like, that is an essential part of any type of scaling you do. And every time you scale in a different way, you need to do that in a different way as well. But most of us don't do it.

Amber Hawley [00:01:35]:
Yeah. And it's one of those things where I think people think about like all the logistical stuff or, you know, the client experience, or it's just the nuts and bolts of everything. And so it's like, there's often, it's like they don't have anything left to like, okay, now how do I also become a better leader? Because obviously being a better leader means you probably have better retention with employees. I mean, there's so many factors there and just your quality of life and you feeling good about how you're showing up in your business. But it definitely takes, it takes work.

Melissa Hall [00:02:09]:
Yeah, it takes a lot. It's one of those like personal development things, right? Where you do it and then you just keep doing it and you keep doing it as long as you are living life as a leader in any capacity, but it keeps getting better.

Amber Hawley [00:02:24]:
Yes. And I think it also depends, like, what kind of business are you trying to run? And I think most of the people who listen to this podcast, they care about being a good leader and running a business that they feel proud of. So it's not just about making money, although we are absolutely about making money because— yes. So But I feel like we talked about this, we gave some presentations at a couple of conferences and kind of talking about leadership. And one of the things that I felt you had said in the last time we presented was talking about like the research you had done is these skills are learnable. And I think so many people feel like, oh, you know, you'll hear from somebody amazing that we look up to and they've always kind of been a natural leader. And there are certainly those types of people, the very— just, you're drawn to them and they just exude that thing where you just want to be around them and they're great. But we absolutely can learn these skills.

Melissa Hall [00:03:27]:
100%. And I also feel like if you are at the stage where you are being a leader, if you have a business and you're scaling it, like, you have the tools. You absolutely have the tools. You have the skills. You just might need like one of those little nuggets, you know, of knowledge that helps you like, oh yeah, I should work on this, or I should do this, or here's this awesome new skill, I, you know, or awesome new strategy I didn't know before, right? But like you have it already. It's, and sometimes you just need that reminder.

Amber Hawley [00:04:07]:
And I think we did touch on a little bit of that kind of learning thing in our previous episode about radical candor that we did with Maureen Wabach. I don't remember the number, But you since, know, technically we're not supposed to number stuff anymore anyway, but you could check that out when you go back and listen or go back through— if you go through Apple Podcasts, we do talk about that, about the ability to learn skills. But we wanted to address how can you start thinking about leadership and do it in a way that feels sustainable? Because often it is like that afterthought or the thing I— oh, now I have to do this you because, know, I'm having struggles with employees or I'm feeling super overwhelmed, like now what do I do? And so we wanna talk about what are those things that make working on your leadership sustainable so that you're not just going down that burnout place.

Melissa Hall [00:04:59]:
Totally. So we have a few points because we spent so much time prepping for this episode, but like Amber said, we also like have done a couple of presentations on this. So some things that we find helpful to remind yourself of when you're like, okay, yes, I'm starting to feel resentful towards employees or customers, or I'm starting to feel burnout, or I'm starting to feel overwhelmed, like those are all signs that actually maybe you need to step back and look at your leadership stuff. So the first one that's really, really helpful to think about in order to avoid this burnout in in the, the first place is to know your leadership style.

Amber Hawley [00:05:44]:
Yeah, this is a big one because if you've set up your business in a way that you have to show up in a way that doesn't feel congruent with like your personality or who you are or what feels easiest, it's— you're just creating all this extra work for yourself. And then that's an energy drain. And I don't think we realize like how much that impacts us. So if we, if we're the kind of person who, like, we like to be more of a hands-off leader, but then we don't create the structures or the training, or we don't hire the right people that can actually work independently, then we're constantly in the minutia of the everyday. And that's really draining.

Melissa Hall [00:06:27]:
Yeah. And I actually, it's funny, we were talking about this before and like, you know, we like to come prepared with examples for all of you. I didn't even think about this, but my last my, you know, job job where I was working for a different company. I was a director. And so when I went for the interview, they asked me about like my leadership style, and I actually didn't even apply for the director position. The woman who was my boss at that time was actually a really good leader. And she started in the interview asking me leadership questions and asking me if I would be willing to actually look at the director position instead of what I had applied for. So, so that was cool. But I, I was very clear when she was asking me. I said, you know, I am not a micromanager. I don't like to be micromanaged, and I can't micromanage other people. That's— it doesn't work for me. It's not my style. It's part of it's the ADHD, part of its personality, part of it's I just feel strongly about not doing that. Like, that's not me, you know? And this was actually— it was kind of like a startup thing. It was a brand new program. So in that way, I loved it because we got to like go in and start this program. We created the policies, we hired everybody, and it was a huge team, like tons and tons of hiring and all. So there are all these cool things I got to do, but because it was new, we weren't quite sure how things were going to work in the beginning. And what the job ended up being was a lot of micromanaging. And so I was like, after a year in, having to spend a lot of time like counting, you know, like almost like bean counting. And these were— I was managing clinical people, like licensed therapists who are doing things, but my role was really like double-checking that they were just like crossing T's and dotting I's and reporting on that. And it was very little of the things that I enjoy doing as a leader. And it didn't really play on my strengths as a leader either. Once we were kind of beyond a lot of that startup stuff. So I feel like that is a place where I never— if they had told me, you know, if I had applied a year later and the job was already more set in stone, I never would have accepted that job.

Amber Hawley [00:08:46]:
Right. And I guess thinking about that as a business owner, because you were in— you were a manager. So as a business owner, you get to make the choice, like, hey, this is what's happening. I'm now bean counting. And I absolutely hate this. So I need to be doing something else. And that's when you hire people, right? To fill in those slots. If it's, if you need a bean counter, because you know, sometimes the business needs a bean counter.

Melissa Hall [00:09:10]:
I know. Yeah. Sometimes you do. But I think that's, well, and that's one of those things where I feel like, you know, Shelly Warren, our kind of leadership guru, she's really good about that, about saying like, you know, everybody thinks, oh, first you hire a VA or first you do this. And it's like, no, it's like you hire what is going to make a big impact for you first and think about those things, like what works with your style, what do you need, and you can do whatever you want, you know, like that's the point. So if you want to keep creating graphics in Canva and like, because you like doing that and you feel like you can't let go of that part, like whatever, you know, you can, you can address that part later, like Just work with yours, but know your style, I think, is a huge piece of it.

Amber Hawley [00:10:02]:
Well, that's that whole knowing yourself. And, you know, or you say create graphics in Canva. I was like, or ordering office supplies, because sometimes you really enjoy it and it makes you happy. I'm just saying, I hear there's people like that. I also think, like, when I go— when I think back to when I was hiring certain roles, like there might've been, you know, like a smart thought to hire like a VA or somebody like that when I need an assistant, because it's financially, it's cheaper, it's easier. It's just one of those things where there's a lot of flexibility, but I had to know, like for me, I love being in person with people, which is kind of ironic that I then, you know, went across the country, but I love that. To me, the in-person thing is so great. And so for me, I would be willing to pay more and have more of a commitment and investment in somebody because I like knowing like that's my person and we have that contact even if they don't come in very often, just knowing like this is my go-to person and I'm her person. Like it's not like she's out there serving a million other people, you know, or he. So it's one of those things and I think it's just knowing how you work There's always a time and a place. And obviously I've hired VAs. I'm not anti-VA. I'm just saying it's again, one of those things of like, if my— if this is my major support role, I'm probably going to need somebody that I can get FaceTime with, because that's just who I am.

Melissa Hall [00:11:31]:
And I feel like this is actually a point that leads to a lot of resentment in leaders, you know, leaders or managers or whatever you want to say. But like, if you're really clear about that upfront, it's a lot easier to hire the people that will fit well with your style. Some people want to come in and have free rein and, and have, you know, some creativity or have some flexibility to like— you might have someone who's very organized and they come in and you're like, yeah, I don't care how it's organized, just please organize it for me. And they're like, I love it, right? And then other people crave that direction and are like, okay. And if you are one of those managers or leaders who doesn't like giving a lot of direction and then you hire someone who really needs a lot of it, that's it's a terrible fit and it's frustrating on both ends.

Amber Hawley [00:12:21]:
Amen. And again, this is where it goes to, then the emotional load of that starts to take its toll. And it's very, it's draining, even if maybe it's only an hour a day. Well, hopefully not, that's a lot. It's a very draining endeavor. So knowing your leadership style is a big piece of it. Another piece is, are you being realistic about what you're trying to achieve given your life circumstances? And so we, we did that episode on the four-burner theory, which you can also refer to, does not have a number either, but it's a great episode. Talk about, and I'm not going to go back through it, you can listen to that episode, but just the idea of, hey, like, do you have major things going on in your life right now? Is this the time you should be scaling or starting that new endeavor or new project? And just kind of being mindful of you know, that, like, are you about to go on maternity leave? Maybe this isn't the best time to hire another person or sign that new lease. Although for some people it doesn't seem to matter, but it's just one of those things where— or I'll use the example of me moving across the country. That wasn't a good time to be in growth mode. That was like, let's just keep the ship afloat, keep it steady, just keep it going like that. And once things settled, then I can be in that place of, okay, now let's look at hiring. Again.

Melissa Hall [00:13:45]:
Yeah. And I think, you know, almost everybody talks about this when they have a baby, especially like their first baby. And, and even I was listening to an episode with Pat Flynn and he was talking to some other guy, like even people who don't go on maternity leave, even these guys, they were talking about that, right? About how like it's these sleepless nights. And I, I think in that way maybe men are actually a little less realistic about how it might impact like their, you know, their ability and their energy and everything. But yeah, it's like, yes, strive for that stuff and like, and go, you know, have big goals, but be realistic too about where you are right now.

Amber Hawley [00:14:20]:
Yeah, I think that's a big piece. 'Cause if you're being more realistic and we're not saying don't set high goals or don't, you know, try to take over the world 'cause I'm all about that. But you gotta know, is my life set up in a way right now that that's, gonna be a realistic thing, or am I just gonna end up feeling overwhelmed, burnt out, and like failing, like I'm failing, right? Because all of that's just going to impact how you're feeling and the energy you can show up for.

Melissa Hall [00:14:50]:
Yeah, it's a marathon.

Amber Hawley [00:14:53]:
And going with that, it's kind of like, okay, when do you, when do you need to step away? That's a huge piece. Like, when do you need a breather? Because let's face it, running a business, it is a marathon. And there are times though that you are sprinting within that marathon and you are, you're just, you have to, 'cause you have a launch or some new project or some, you know, a huge burst of growth and tons of new clients or something like that where it's like, you're kind of going a little more balls to the wall. Or I think about some of the other people I've been talking to lately where they're moving into new offices or, Signing a lease for an office building or something like that. That's a huge investment in energy and you have to do it for a certain period of time, but then do you know when you need to step back and give yourself that space?

Melissa Hall [00:15:43]:
Yeah. And that one, I think for both of us, that idea was very impactful from the episode where we interviewed Natalie McNeill. This is just going to be the episode of talking about other episodes. This is your summary episode.

Amber Hawley [00:15:56]:
Is this meta? I'm not sure. No, it's not, but it's just very—.

Melissa Hall [00:16:00]:
But it's, I mean, that that was, was a huge a huge thing she talked about. And like, I think, yeah, just so impactful for both of us to think about that. Like, so often when we are struggling with something and spending so much time and energy and feeling frustrated, I think that's like one of the most common times, the best thing is actually to step away. Whether that is step away from that project in the moment and go for a walk, or just go home for the day from your office. Like, whatever that looks like, a lot of the time, that is the solution. And once we do that, we recharge, we get in touch with more of ourselves and kind of center ourselves, I guess. And then we're actually able to approach the problem so much more easily.

Amber Hawley [00:16:49]:
Yeah, and more efficiently. And I think it's kind of one of those things where when you feel like you're in the weeds like that, you feel like I can't possibly walk away right now. I can't take this space. I have so much going on. And it's absolutely when you need to because it's one of those things where, yeah, you will come back, you will be more efficient, probably nobody's going to die. Most of us don't have businesses that someone will die if they don't get their needs addressed that day. But taking that space for yourself is really important. And sometimes it's more than a day or an hour. It could be a couple of days. It could be a couple of you weeks, know, giving yourself that space to then kind of come back with that new outlook. You know, as you were talking about it, it reminded me, I'm not sure if I shared this on that episode, I doubt it, but I thought I was thinking about Profit First, the book by Mike Michalowicz. He shares this story because I listened to the audio version and he was sharing his story about this guy who was running a business. I don't remember what it was, what the business was now, I feel like it was like servicing something or it was some kind of like vending machine thing. I have no idea. I can't even remember. But this guy was having this business and he was losing money every month and it was so much stress and he had all these employees and it just was like circling the drain and it was really bad and he was working his butt off. And he read Profit First. Somehow he made the space to even read a book, which is pretty amazing, right? And he then took, I think it was like a week or 2 weeks off, and he read the book or, you know, finished, went through and really thought about it, came back and he was able to turn his business around. And had he not done that and taken that space, read that book and really implemented it, it wasn't going to happen. And I just remember listening to that story. You'll have to listen to the book or read the book. It's much more inspiring than I am. But I just remember like, oh, wow, that's one of those things where when we need it most, we are least likely to give ourselves what we're needing because we feel so stressed. And there was real stuff, like this was like bankruptcy and he had a family to provide for. So it's valid stuff, but it's like you got to figure out a different way. So I think that's a huge piece in leadership.

Melissa Hall [00:19:07]:
Yeah, yeah. It's the only way to sustain yourself as a leader. Because I think even when you hear like big leaders, you know, like Tony Robbins type people talk, they only are able to sustain that level of leadership with almost like extreme self-care or regular self-care practices. So I think, and a huge part of that is just stepping away regularly, sometimes stepping away to reflect on it and sometimes just stepping away to give yourself a break and get out of it and just be yourself.

Amber Hawley [00:19:40]:
Absolutely. And I know we could talk forever. We have so many things that we could talk about as far as you know, how do you set your business up to avoid burnout and like, like strategies, like real tools. But it's kind of this, I feel like this piece is more of like the mindset stuff of what are the things I need to be thinking about or how can I be proactive or how can I think about this to kind of keep me from being in that space. And probably the last thing is, you know, when you're starting to feel that, like you said, growing resentment or just overwhelmed or just feeling like I'm not sure what I'm doing here, like going back to your why.

Melissa Hall [00:20:18]:
Yeah. And thinking about like, and not necessarily even your why of you, why you started your business maybe, but it could be like, why did you get into whatever profession you're in? You know, like what was fun about it? What was interesting? Like for some people, they don't have a specific profession, like you and I are licensed therapists, but some people like just like learning. And so maybe you started, you became an entrepreneur and have started different businesses because you enjoy the task of learning. So it's like, maybe you go back to that, but kind of thinking about like, What is your kind your of OG why for doing what you do to make things fun and to get that back? And I you think, know, when we've talked about this in some of our workshops, it's been about like, it's so easy to just get stuck in the business stuff, the business growth. And for most of us, that's a lot of fun and that's why we're doing this, but you have to have some other interest in it too.

Amber Hawley [00:21:11]:
Yeah, 'cause when you're having fun, you know, I don't think you're burning out when you're having fun. I don't think those two things go together. So it's— and not that all of life is going to be fun, but when you're having more joy in something, when you're kind of like connected to like, oh, this is the best part, this is the stuff I love. You're going to have those shitty days and good days and all that, but that's one of those things that makes it more sustainable for sure.

Melissa Hall [00:21:37]:
Yeah. So hopefully we gave you some food for thought and maybe one of those points like really kind of hit home. And that's what we would hope to encourage you is to kind of think about like, what is that thing you're not addressing? Or what is that area that needs your attention that might be leading you to burnout? Maybe you're not feeling burnt out now, but you're feeling like, yeah, okay, I could see that if, if this kept going for another 6 months, I'd be feeling burnt out. So, you know, what is that thing? And that's the thing we want you to take action on.

Amber Hawley [00:22:10]:
Yeah. And we'd love to hear about it. We'd love— come and, uh, head on over to our website and let us know.

Melissa Hall [00:22:18]:
Yeah. Leave us a comment.

Amber Hawley [00:22:20]:
Yeah. That's the word I was looking for. It's like, there's that thing where you write stuff and people read it. Comment. Yeah. Yeah. Comment. That's good.

Melissa Hall [00:22:31]:
We want to see it.