3 Creative Small Business Financing Options with Joseph Hogue

Amber Hawley [00:00:22]:
Welcome to season 5 of the My Biz Bestie podcast. I'm Amber Hawley.

Maelisa Hall [00:00:27]:
And I'm Melissa Hall.

Amber Hawley [00:00:28]:
And today we have a very special Biz Bro in the house.

Maelisa Hall [00:00:33]:
Yay, Biz Bros!

Amber Hawley [00:00:35]:
Woo-hoo! We have the most amazing Joseph Hogue, who is a financial guru and YouTuber, and we are so excited to have him come and share all things finance. So welcome, Joseph. Wow.

Joseph Hogue [00:00:51]:
The most amazing. I like that. I think I'm going to start branding with that. The most amazing Joseph Hogue. Thanks, Melissa, Amber. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

Amber Hawley [00:01:02]:
Yeah.

Maelisa Hall [00:01:02]:
It's like when people call themselves like a bestselling author because they're like in like one super narrow category in Amazon or something, you know, how like you just got to own that.

Amber Hawley [00:01:13]:
Like, well, I'm going to do that.

Maelisa Hall [00:01:15]:
Yeah.

Amber Hawley [00:01:15]:
I will so do that one day. But yes. And I didn't want to put any pressure. So I say all things finance. So literally we are expecting A to Z.

Joseph Hogue [00:01:25]:
So no pressure though.

Amber Hawley [00:01:26]:
No pressure.

Maelisa Hall [00:01:27]:
None. None. But this is going to be an epic episode, people.

Amber Hawley [00:01:30]:
Yes. We're very excited about this. We had the pleasure of stalking Joseph at FinCon in 2017, I believe. And because we had heard you on a podcast talking about SEO, I think you have this great energy and I just love like how creative you are and the way that you're— it always felt like you kind of are one of those people like, let me experiment with this and see how it works. And then, you just get really excited by the results. That was the sense I got. So of course, Melissa as well. So we needed to stalk you and we did, we hunted you down. And so you've you've been, been there behind the scenes for us.

Joseph Hogue [00:02:11]:
Awesome. Well, you're catching me right after FinCon 2019 when I have know, the, you the conference crud. So I will gladly disappoint you on the energy, I think. But I will do my best.

Amber Hawley [00:02:26]:
I know. I'm feeling that. I just spent a week in California and I get it because it's like, even if you're an extrovert, you're go, go, go. And then you just have that comedown that just kind of makes you feel not like your normal self, I think.

Joseph Hogue [00:02:40]:
Oh, yeah. And no amount of vitamin C is going to save you from just a million different people bringing a million different germs. Yes.

Amber Hawley [00:02:49]:
And I will say FinCon is a little cray-cray.

Maelisa Hall [00:02:53]:
Yes. That is a party conference, people.

Amber Hawley [00:02:57]:
That is a party conference. Enjoyed it immensely.

Maelisa Hall [00:03:00]:
But Joseph, would you, for those of our audience who maybe have not been stalking you on their own, would you let our audience know a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Joseph Hogue [00:03:12]:
Sure. Well, I got out of the Marine Corps in 2001 and got into equity analysis, real estate. So that's really kind of my background there. And of course, like most people, I hated my jobs. Uh, I loved the topics and the ideas that I was working in, but just wanted that, that sense of financial freedom and control that I you think, know, we all get from owning our own business and being able to grow that. So in 2012, I started freelancing as an equity analyst, doing some other freelancing projects, and eventually created my own websites and my own blogs. Now, I've got 4 blogs in personal finance, investing, making money online, and really just love the idea of being able to grow those businesses. By no means, not huge online websites, not a huge online presence or a business, but something that I can be proud of creating, helping other people in some of those different ideas, different topics. In 2017, I actually evolved it into a YouTube channel as well called Let's Talk Money. And I just love that face-to-face interaction you get from video. As an equity analyst, I've never been able to really write with my personality, right? It's all facts, it's all numbers. So it was always really hard to connect across the blogs. But in YouTube, through that video, you get that face-to-face interaction. You can really share your personality through what you're wearing. So for myself, I love putting the bow tie back on. And different things in your backdrop. And I just love the engagement you get on video.

Amber Hawley [00:04:49]:
Yes, and I definitely think people should go to YouTube and check it out. I mean, maybe just for the bow ties, but also for all the, like you said, your energy and the knowledge, the financial knowledge. It comes across so much better when you can have a person and find it relatable in a relatable setting.

Joseph Hogue [00:05:07]:
Absolutely. So come for the bow ties, stay for the knowledge.

Amber Hawley [00:05:10]:
There you go. I like it.

Joseph Hogue [00:05:13]:
So yeah, just love talking about all things, personal finance, uh, you know, beating debt, making money and really making your money work for you. Uh, so, uh, you know, we do cover a lot of the stuff on the small business side, but it's, it's a lot of it's on that personal finance side that, that even, I think a lot of business owners are still a little naive or negligent even, I think on, uh, on their personal finance side, I won't name any names, but we were, uh, before recording, we were just talking about somebody on this podcast that is still using her personal credit card her for business.

Maelisa Hall [00:05:47]:
But keeping all expenses separate as I have done from day one.

Joseph Hogue [00:05:52]:
For privacy, we'll just call her Ms. Hall. No, let's call her Melissa H. Yeah.

Amber Hawley [00:06:00]:
We will keep that anonymous. I knew she was going to out herself. I'm like, if I, if I'm quiet long enough, she'll out herself, but I will. I want to say, as a, as a couples therapist who works with entrepreneurs, I'm going to tell you that so many people do not even have a personal budget. Let alone a business budget. So I agree with you wholeheartedly that it is kind of that secret shame thing and we don't get taught this stuff in school. So people just kind of like, oh, you know, there's money in the bank. So cool. Let's not deal with that.

Maelisa Hall [00:06:34]:
And if you start your business like on the side, which a lot of people do, right? Kind of start it part-time or like they're personally funding it in the beginning. Like, then you end up using like a lot of whatever it is that you're using in your personal life, right? Like you're probably running your business finances in a very similar way to your personal finances. And if a lot of people aren't really doing so well with their personal finances, then that becomes a problem in your business.

Joseph Hogue [00:07:04]:
So just a little bit, a little bit of business shaming there going on.

Amber Hawley [00:07:07]:
Sorry. No, it's not shaming. We're acknowledging people's, as, as we've heard other people describe it, their dirty backends, like behind the scenes that people have those little things. It's not shame. It's just, hey, let's be real. So now you're going to help us address that.

Maelisa Hall [00:07:28]:
I know, I know. Cause I think there's, well, and actually that's kind of a, uh, like a hot topic right now, right? Is like when you do start following a lot of personal finance stuff, what's a strategy that almost everybody touts, which is start using cash, use the little cash envelope thing. Basically, they're trying to get you to realize how much money you're spending, which is the idea behind that. But if you think about it, that's kind of what I've done in my business is really only making sure I'm always cashflow positive, using only the money that is actually there that exists. And But there comes a time where that's limiting and it can be scary if you have been feeling like you've been even really responsible, but now you're finding it limiting. You're like, well, how far do I go? I don't want to be in a ton of debt or be worried about having to pay off a ton of things that I can't afford. But then if I do need to get some debt, how do I grow? I feel like these are all things that as you start to scale can become an issue. And And it's a lot of it is having these fears about things that you don't understand. And so once you kind of learn like what is useful, what's good, what is good for what circumstance, then those things don't feel like this big scary thing that is going to, you know, drown you in debt or, or drown your business in debt.

Joseph Hogue [00:08:59]:
Sure, sure. And I think there's a lot to be said for, for making that leap from, you know, just a side hustle or at work or a work from home kind kind of, of income source to a legitimate business. Sure. I'm nodding my head in agreement, which I realize is completely pointless on a podcast.

Amber Hawley [00:09:19]:
I have been known to do that, so, you know, and I should know better. But so if you— I guess let's start there. I'm sure you can speak to both the person who's just starting out and like what are kind of options for that person if they want to— if they're thinking about financing their business. But I am also really interested because I think a lot of the people who listen already have businesses, like Also, what do you do when you realize, okay, I've been doing it all in cash and maybe a credit card, but how do I go to that place? Where do I scale and what are my options as far as financing that? Sure.

Joseph Hogue [00:09:54]:
And I think that's a scary step for a lot of people, that idea of taking on business funding. So either a loan or investors or something like that to really scale and take your business to the next level. I think a lot of people, they really confine themselves to that narrow mentality of, okay, maybe I can reinvest I invest a little bit of this money, the money that I'm making, but I'm not going to grow it into something larger by taking on that actual idea of business funding. So there's definitely a few things that people can start with. And I like to use a process where you're using multiple funding sources and in a way that builds momentum and builds off each other. So the first thing I like to tell people is either taking out just a very small business loan, and that can even be a personal loan for a lot of people that maybe don't have that necessarily that business credit, that haven't really formalized their business enough that it's going to be able to get a business loan. But something like maybe a small personal loan or a small business loan, obviously you always have to be cognizant of the interest rates and make sure you're not getting into something that that you can't pay back and that's going to put you at risk, but using that to really make those hiring decisions that you can or buy those resources or whatever you need to do to really scale your business and get that initial momentum. And then from there, you can go on to sources, things like rewards crowdfunding, where you've built up that momentum, you've built up a community really around your business, and you can use that to leverage into crowdfunding. Because one of the things that a lot of people don't realize with rewards crowdfunding like Kickstarter or Indiegogo, something like that, is that it's really about your community that you've already established and being able to use that community, that organic and existing community, to really jumpstart your crowdfunding campaign. And it's not about asking for help. It's not about having no other funding options or anything like that. Crowdfunding is really just a great way to get instant feedback for product ideas, to let your community and your existing— the people that already support your business— give them an opportunity to engage a little bit more in your business. So what I tell all small business owners, they need to be crowdfunding at least once. Try out a product idea, a business idea, and go to your community through email or whatever distribution you have and just kind of talk to them about what they would like to see in this kind of a product. Ideas they have, and then do a crowdfunding campaign for it. People will be— it will amaze you how engaged people will get into this crowdfunding campaign once they know that they have input, they had feedback into this product. So not only are you going to be raising money for that new product idea, for your business expansion, you're also going to bring more people in because once you— when you trigger certain amounts in a crowdfunding campaign, let's say on Kickstarter, If you can get upwards of maybe 20% or 30% of your funding amount on that first few days, then of course Kickstarter is going to push that campaign out to other people. You're going to have a natural marketing source for your business for that new product there. You're going to raise more money. Then, of course, you can use some of that to pay off that earlier loan. From there, you've got a larger community. You've got a new product that you can sell. Then you can take it onto that, maybe that next level of business funding really in selling, maybe selling pieces to an investor group through equity crowdfunding or just some kind of an informal agreement you have with your community.

Maelisa Hall [00:13:49]:
And when you say selling pieces, you mean selling like pieces of your business?

Joseph Hogue [00:13:53]:
Yeah, sure. Selling like an equity, like a company would would go, do an initial public offering on the stock market, right? Of course, that's reserved for billion-dollar companies that most of us will never realize. But a lot of people don't know that you could do something like that with even a smaller business, even a business with maybe just a few tens of thousands of sales a month. You can actually look for equity investors to sell maybe even something as small as a 10% stake in your company. And really what that does is not only does it bring in that extra, that next level of money for growth. So, you know, if you've got $20,000 in monthly sales, about a quarter of a million annual gross, I mean, you could bring in, even on 10%, you could bring in $200,000, $300,000 from investors. What that's going to be is not only that next level of funding for your business, but also that next level of community and commitment, I'd say, from those people. Because not only the rewards crowdfunding idea brings in people because they have feedback and input into your products, this equity crowdfunding idea or just generally selling a piece of your business to an investor group brings in cheerleaders because they have an invested interest in your company. So, through this process, not only are you starting with— so, you're starting with something that's fairly easy to get, those small business loans, those personal loans, or what have you, something that's fairly easy to get, lower amounts, to really leverage that and build that momentum into different funding sources that are going to help grow your community around your business. So, you've got constant cheerleaders spreading your message and really helping you grow, but it also brings higher levels. Of funding for your business.

Amber Hawley [00:15:52]:
Going back to the crowdfunding thing, I have a couple of questions about that. One is, like I said, just by hearing you on previous podcasts or listening to your YouTube channel, I get the sense that you're the kind of guy who's willing to experiment and take these risks. But I wonder for a lot of people, I can imagine they feel like, well, I don't want to do Kickstarter, for instance, because what if it fails? I think so many people are so afraid of then that's a really public, you know, quote-unquote failure. Here I am doing the fingers when nobody can see that, but finger quotation. Actually, we forgot we are going to be on YouTube. We totally forgot we are doing that. We just started it with season 5.

Joseph Hogue [00:16:33]:
So— Oh wow, okay. I would, I would have put on the bow tie and, and turned my desk around for the backdrop.

Amber Hawley [00:16:45]:
We didn't want you to outshine us, Joseph. We needed to not feel like, you.

Joseph Hogue [00:16:50]:
Know, we're wearing— Oh, you're killing me. You're pulling back the curtain on my whole operation here.

Amber Hawley [00:16:56]:
I know.

Joseph Hogue [00:16:58]:
I've got people thinking that I shoot from a luxurious office with my backdrop and everything, and now you're showing people.

Maelisa Hall [00:17:05]:
It'S— Well, this is your home office you're in right now, right? Not your studio.

Joseph Hogue [00:17:11]:
Not my studio on Fifth Avenue, no.

Amber Hawley [00:17:13]:
Exactly, or the yacht office. It's literally just the one in your dungeon basement, like we all have. I think we all have the same bland, boring beige background today.

Maelisa Hall [00:17:25]:
Yes, yes we do. Oh well.

Joseph Hogue [00:17:28]:
This is gonna make for great YouTube viewing.

Amber Hawley [00:17:30]:
Amazing, it's gonna be amazing.

Maelisa Hall [00:17:32]:
We'll add sparkles or something, I don't know.

Joseph Hogue [00:17:36]:
But yeah, I mean, there's different risks for different levels of this funding, I think. Probably the biggest risk is for a lot of people is just going to be those interest rates on the, on the loans, uh, even a small business loan, uh, even one that maybe you can get, uh, if you get, get back through the Small Business Administration, it's going to be a 7 to uh, 12%, uh, interest rate, uh, and then even more on some of those personal loans. Uh, so, so at that point, you really need to, uh, look at those risks in terms of, okay, basically borrowing only as much as you need to, to get to that next level, maybe that, that next, that rewards crowdfunding level, uh, or in Only as much as you know you can pay back even without maybe the business income, maybe pay back on your personal side if things don't quite work out.

Maelisa Hall [00:18:24]:
Can you give us some examples of when you might want to use each of these different types of funding? For the business loan, I'm thinking maybe an example would be if you're a service-based business and you want to add a second location. That might be, I don't know, would that be a good time to have maybe a business loan to furnish this new office? And, you know, make whatever down payments and all of that stuff because you already have this established business and anticipate growth once you open this new location. But that can be a big investment.

Joseph Hogue [00:18:56]:
Sure, sure. And I think there's really two things you need to think about at each of these stages, right? So, for the business loan, one is you need to think about investing in or using it to invest in things that are going to get you to that next stage, right? So, if we're looking at rewards crowdfunding for that next stage, then obviously, you would want to invest in something that's going to be able you're able to build your community because that's so critical at that next level, at that rewards crowdfunding level. You would also want to think about, obviously, with the small business loan stage, you're going to want to think about the risk involved with an interest rate and with that debt obligation. I think traditional companies, they are constantly borrowing to do just like you said, for those business expansions. Which is kind of risky, right? If that second branch or that second restaurant doesn't work out, then you're still on the hook for those debt payments and for that interest. So I've always been, despite my hard-charging Marine background, I've always been a little bit of a coward when it comes to business risk. I want to be absolutely sure that there's no risk to this. So I generally, Besides just preferring really low capital-intensive businesses, then yeah, I like to invest in existing products or expanding existing products, things that I know that I have the confidence that by expanding them, they're going to have that higher cash payout rather than new product ideas. So yeah, I would say maybe expanding an existing product or an existing idea or an existing service with that small business loan and then waiting for the the rewards crowdfunding, where maybe you don't have quite that commitment to the debt obligation to get into other product ideas, new product ideas.

Maelisa Hall [00:20:56]:
It's interesting because all of these things that you're talking about are making me realize they kind of make you level up because you're having to really think about like, it's not just like, oh, let me go away for a couple of days and do some business strategy and think about how I'm going to scale. And it's not just like, oh, I'm going to hire somebody to scale to this. It's like really, having an idea of being able to explain to an investor, this is why I think this can be successful. This is the base that I have. Literally looking at numbers to know, okay, I'd be able to make this many payments for this long. I feel like even if you didn't take that action of applying for one of these things or seeking that, just going through that practice of preparing for it, would really make you level up?

Joseph Hogue [00:21:48]:
Oh, sure. Absolutely. I think if you did get to that level where you're selling a portion of the business to an investor group, then you've already got experience with debt, paying back debt, and really doing the hard financial analysis, I think, that comes with making sure that your income and your sales are going to be there to back that debt up. You've also got the experience with leveraging your community to be able to raise that money. So you've got not you only, know, that hard financial analysis experience in your business, but also the softer skills that comes you with, know, being able to leverage a community and really drive, you know, drive momentum to fundraise. Definitely. Now, I know that raising money through crowdfunding, yeah, it can be intimidating, I guess. And you're right, it's a very real and very real and public kind of way to raise money, and that can be scary for a lot of people. I think part of, you know, one of the ways you confront that or really overcome that is by setting that initial level or fundraising amount lower. So on Kickstarter, then, you know, if you don't reach your funding amount, then you don't get anything. Your project isn't funded. Your supporters aren't debited for that. Really, basically, nothing happens other than you lose the last 2 months of your life trying to do this Kickstarter campaign. What you can do is you start a lower initial fundraising amount just for that bare-bones product or that idea, but then you set milestones on top of that. Those aren't formalized milestones or formalized fundraising amounts. Basically, you just go to your community and say, "Hey, we can create this amazing product that's going to help people at this base level." I'd really like to do, and if we reach this funding amount, I'd really like to add some of these other ideas into it, these other features or functionality. And for that, okay, so we need to raise $1,000 more above this base level. And you can have 2 or 3 or 4 of these milestone amounts that you can add on to it. And it can really not only help you raise more money, but it really motivates the people in your community to, once you reach that fundraising goal, hey, keep sharing the campaign, keep sharing with their people and trying to raise that higher amount.

Amber Hawley [00:24:16]:
I'm wondering too, do you think that if you're thinking, okay, I have my business goals and I know I'm going to be scaling and down the road, I have these whatever goals they are, that it's a good idea to start utilizing different types of credit or business, either lines of credit or loans or something like that, because it does help create that creditworthiness for your business. I kind of wanted to check in about that because you mentioned sometimes people have to use personal loans at first because they don't have that proven track record. So I wasn't sure what your thoughts are on that.

Joseph Hogue [00:24:51]:
Sure, definitely. And there's a couple different ways you can go with that. I'd say, yeah, I would get off of personal loans as quickly as possible, not only because of the higher rates, but because you do want to build that business credit and that business credibility. Really. So I know another one that is fairly easy to get besides— so Small Business Administration loans are generally a little tough to get sometimes for a lot of people that don't have the history. You can get some small business loans from other online lenders like Lending Club or some other sites, but also you might check out PayPal, which has a really neat program that they run, which basically they just take your— I think it's like the trailing 12 months, so the last 12 months of sales that you made through PayPal, the collections you made through PayPal, and they'll lend you a certain amount of that. So usually a fairly easy side of small business funding to get and really start that experience. And of course, after taking that and then paying that off, then you can show that experience to a bank or traditional bank or another lender to say, hey, I have this experience with small business loans and funding, even though maybe my business credit score isn't quite yet to the point where you'd be approved for other loans.

Maelisa Hall [00:26:16]:
That's really cool.

Amber Hawley [00:26:19]:
And is there a place to find out what your business credit score is?

Maelisa Hall [00:26:22]:
Oh yeah.

Amber Hawley [00:26:23]:
I was like, oh, cool.

Joseph Hogue [00:26:24]:
That's a good question. I have no idea.

Amber Hawley [00:26:28]:
Oh, okay. I know I like to I obsess obsessively check all those and see if my points go up. I'm like, I'm going for excellent.

Joseph Hogue [00:26:36]:
No, that's me dropping the ball on.

Amber Hawley [00:26:39]:
This one because— No, you can't know all the things, even though I did tout that in the beginning.

Joseph Hogue [00:26:46]:
You said I was awesome and I really feel like I've let you down.

Amber Hawley [00:26:51]:
No, that remains true. That remains true. Don't worry about that one. But yeah, so you think that can be a really good thing Thinking long-term is making sure that you're building the creditworthiness in your business, not just personally.

Joseph Hogue [00:27:04]:
Sure, sure. Like I said, for each one of these steps, part of it is thinking about how that's going to take you to that next level, to that next step. So thinking about how you're creating the credibility or developing the credibility to show whoever's lending you that money, that next step, or giving you that money, creating the community that's going to help you in that next step. Sure, it's a process. And I think, you know, we were talking before the show about that complacency episode you had, and I think it's a great way to really overcome some of that complacency that we feel sometimes as business owners is to have those longer-term goals that we're working to constantly and on a daily basis, you know, having things that we have to do now to achieve those longer-term goals, not necessarily just have some ephemeral goal in mind for the next 2 or 3 years.

Amber Hawley [00:27:59]:
So another question I have is, I guess I hear this more— I've heard more women talk about it, but I probably hear about more female business owners' finances— is there are times where I'm talking to somebody and they have a business that's making money, but then it turns out that they just keep reinvesting everything into their business and they never pay themselves a salary. And I don't know, I mean, maybe it happens with men as well, but I'm, you know, I imagine everybody in the beginning does that a little bit, but I guess I'm wondering what you think about from the financial perspective, like, is that a good idea? Or, you know, I'm sure this is hard in some ways, but I guess what are your thoughts about that? And when do you think they should start maybe taking an income and maybe look at an alternative source to fund this reinvestment?

Joseph Hogue [00:28:47]:
Sure, sure. And I think like a lot of things, anything at the extremes probably isn't going to be healthy for either personally or for your business. Obviously, taking all your— I think I see a lot of people also take all of their business profits as an income and don't reinvest anything and then wonder why they never grow. But yeah, that other extreme where you're constantly reinvesting everything, I think I think that's maybe probably a little less unhealthy environment because you are actually making that conscious decision to reinvest and to grow your business. So I love that idea, but I think it's healthy to look at what you're reinvesting in. I think a lot of people, a lot of small business owners, myself included, feel that obligation or that urge to reinvest profits from their business. It kind of creates an environment where a return on that investment takes a backseat to just making that investment. Obviously, if you're scaling into different roles, hiring different people, then you still have to think, "Okay, you know what? Is this new role that I'm hiring for, is that actually adding to the bottom line? Are they actually doing that deep work that is adding to the bottom line and growing the business, or is it just me saying, 'Hey, I've got an extra $1,000, what do I do with it? So I definitely think there's that idea of looking at the numbers and making sure that it makes sense to reinvest in the business. If you're reinvesting in your business and that's not driving a return of at least 10% or 20%, then maybe you could just invest that in your retirement account and not have to worry about it. Get that 7% to 10% return on stocks, plus the tax break and maybe a little bit less stress.

Amber Hawley [00:30:46]:
Well, that was going to lead me to ask, how do you make those decisions about what you reinvest?

Joseph Hogue [00:30:51]:
Stole your thunder.

Amber Hawley [00:30:52]:
I know, no, I'm curious. But then when you said that, I was like, what is this retirement thing that you speak of?

Joseph Hogue [00:31:01]:
My business is my retirement. Robert Levy: Yeah, sure. And a lot of times it's hard to draw that number, that actual hard number from how much your business reinvestment is producing. So it's tough saying, "Okay, you know what? I make an 8% return on my stocks," plus the tax break in your retirement accounts versus, okay, 20% or 30% or 40% on your business. Obviously, I think everybody needs to be tracking their business, their sales, and their net profit on their business. So that's going to give you some kind of an idea of that broad overall growth in your business. It is helpful to look at your reinvestments or what you're reinvesting in on a case-by-case basis as well, just to make sure that you're getting a return on each individual investment.

Maelisa Hall [00:31:51]:
Robert Leonard: Yeah. And it seems like a really holistic kind of strategy where you're You're thinking like, okay, well, is this money better spent like on the personal side, on the business side, and in which area? And you're kind of thinking long-term on both ends for all of it.

Joseph Hogue [00:32:08]:
Yeah, it's a tough decision because there are some things in a business that are just going to be cost centers, right? There are going to be things that don't necessarily produce income for the business directly, but that do grow the business and indirectly maybe lead to income. Something like a social media manager, right? They're going to be creating that community, building that community that may not necessarily all become customers or all paying customers, but it is growing. It is something that you need to grow in your business, create that community and somebody that's going to be a cheerleader for your brand. It's a tough decision. That's probably one of the toughest decisions, I'd say, for business owners is where to invest or reinvest, how to reinvest and really scale their business.

Maelisa Hall [00:32:57]:
And I guess this is where it's really helpful to consult with other people, right? Like to talk to someone who's a financial advisor or someone else who has done this in the past and get an outside opinion of, is this helpful? What are the pros and cons? Am I looking at the right things?

Joseph Hogue [00:33:18]:
Sure, sure. I think everybody needs to be in at least one mastermind group, right? Where, where you meet with a group of maybe small business owners, or really just people, successful people that you admire. Meet with a group of 4 or 5 people each week, whether it's online or in person, and just kind of trade ideas, trade strategies and support and motivation.

Amber Hawley [00:33:38]:
I'm guessing like nobody's gonna say that my course buying problem is going to be a good reinvestment since there's a 0% return. That's where my mind is right now. I was like, I need to find those people who just keep telling me yes, although lately Melissa keeps telling me no.

Maelisa Hall [00:33:54]:
Yeah, no, you don't need it.

Amber Hawley [00:33:57]:
But that's a digression. Well, you touch on something I think is important. A lot of people don't have like a business advisor or financial advisor that they speak to regularly. You know, sometimes they might have a CPA, but they're not like talking to them throughout the year to get feedback on things. What would you recommend to somebody as like a first step? Because I know for a lot of people, like, it feels overwhelming and scary because again, they might not feel— they don't want to be judged about how they've been spending their money, or they feel like, oh, maybe I don't make enough money to even talk to a financial advisor, you know, something along those lines. So I guess, do you have any recommendations as far as that goes?

Joseph Hogue [00:34:38]:
I guess you're saying this is a good time to pitch my, my business advisory services, right? Now only $199. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, there's, there's tons of free stuff out there on the internet. If you want to go into one higher, one level higher up, maybe just books on Kindle are like $5 each. You know, there's, there's always a book out there for, for different, different needs and advice. I think that first step should probably be kind of be a mastermind group, just finding your tribe, finding a group of people that have the same problems and challenges as you do within that business theme. And yeah, talking to them each week because you'll find that we all have the same questions. But working together and exchanging ideas and suggestions, you get there together.

Maelisa Hall [00:35:33]:
I think that's a great reframe. Like, we don't always have to go and find some one big solution. It's a lot of just talking with other people who are in a similar place and strategizing and seeing what other people are doing. I mean, yeah, that's, that's huge for opening up the possibilities that you have.

Joseph Hogue [00:35:53]:
Sure, sure. And like I said, I think 99% of the questions you have about your business and scaling and growing, it's probably going to be the same things that other business owners are thinking of. So it's not necessarily, okay, how do I do this? How do I do that? But really talking through the solutions, everyone sharing what they've learned from a book or a resource and really developing those answers together.

Maelisa Hall [00:36:18]:
Yeah. And it's kind of like, hmm, Amber with her course buying, like maybe that's kind of like a flip on it of like, hey, let's all like research this topic or find different resources on a specific topic. And like talk about what we found and figure it out together.

Joseph Hogue [00:36:38]:
Or actually, do we need an intervention here? Because I'm hearing intervention.

Amber Hawley [00:36:42]:
The intervention happened a couple of years ago. I'm actually doing really, really good.

Maelisa Hall [00:36:46]:
Yes, yes.

Amber Hawley [00:36:47]:
But yes, I do. is, That that's like my, like some people buy shoes and purses, I buy courses. But I've had an intervention. I am, but I'm just one to own it. I did try to buy one this morning and I talked myself out of it even before Melissa did. So I feel very proud. I'm in recovery.

Joseph Hogue [00:37:07]:
Milestones.

Maelisa Hall [00:37:09]:
I know. Yeah, it's totally different now, but it's also like you've been looking at like the ROI part of it.

Amber Hawley [00:37:16]:
Yes. I'm like, hey, I'm just going to feel good. It's like buying that Kindle book for $5. The thing is I'll buy it and I'll be like, oh, I have the solution there in my pocket now. So now the anxiety is gone. And now I don't even have to read it. So I just feel good until the next time. And then when I feel really stressed, then maybe I buy a new book or I go back and finally read that book and then I'll just feel better and I don't have to make any changes.

Joseph Hogue [00:37:40]:
Wow. We are getting into some deep psychological ideas here. This is like electronic hoarding or something, I think.

Maelisa Hall [00:37:50]:
Oh my God.

Amber Hawley [00:37:52]:
Oh, that just cut to my soul. Like I'm so minimalist oriented. That, that actually, that phrase electronic hoarding is probably going to cut me of all future courses.

Joseph Hogue [00:38:04]:
There is a show on TLC for that. I guarantee you somebody, somebody is going to hear this podcast, a producer at TLC, and they are going to pitch that show and I want royalties on it.

Amber Hawley [00:38:15]:
Oh yeah. OMG. Electronic hoarding. I think you cut me to the core, man. Like that's, I got it.

Maelisa Hall [00:38:21]:
Yeah. But you might want to go do a trademark application right after this.

Amber Hawley [00:38:27]:
Exactly.

Joseph Hogue [00:38:27]:
You better get used to that. Go to my website, electronichoarding.com. Awesome.

Maelisa Hall [00:38:31]:
Well, Joseph, I think you've given people other than electronic hoarding a lot of things to consider, a lot of things to think about. And I feel like a lot of just, yeah, opening up a lot of possibilities that other people may not have thought of. So if they do want to find out more about you and even specifically about these different ideas on investing and different opportunities they have, where can they go to do that?

Joseph Hogue [00:38:58]:
[Speaker:Ryan_Chalmers] Sure. Well, I love growing the community on YouTube through that Let's Talk Money channel there on YouTube. Love talking back and forth with people about beating their debt, making more money, and just really making their money work for them. So join me on YouTube there. I've also got a couple of books that would be relevant to the idea here. I've got a crowdfunding book that really talks through how to create that rewards crowdfunding idea or campaign to get to that next level on Kickstarter, as well as just a general business funding book that is called Zero to Business that will talk you through really kind of what I talked through here. So with that, starting with that small business loan idea and then leveraging that into each next step of of the, the growth.

Maelisa Hall [00:39:42]:
Awesome.

Amber Hawley [00:39:44]:
I know I personally am going to go buy that book and reduce any anxiety I have.

Maelisa Hall [00:39:50]:
I know. Yeah, I'm definitely going to check it out too. So we will definitely link to all of those in the show notes. So if you want to be able to just click from your phone, head over there and do that, and you'll be able to check out all of these awesome resources. And thank you so much, Joseph, for being here and for sharing all these, these cool tips.

Joseph Hogue [00:40:09]:
It was my pleasure. Not only fun, but therapeutic.

Amber Hawley [00:40:14]:
Yes, thank you, thank you.